Japan Open 2010 & gala Carnival on Ice - Tokyo, 02.10.2010

Возвращение в спорт, тренировки, сборы, соревнования! || Comeback to sport, Training, Camps, Competitions

Re: Japan Open 2010 - Tokyo, 02.10.2010

Postby clairdelalune » 05 Oct 2010, 19:55

Nyssa wrote:I think that winning is not the only thing at stake here. Another big issue at stake is what direction male figure skating will take from this point on: will men do quads in the future or not. The American skaters, like Evan Lysacek and Patrick Chan, have said that they see a future of male figure skating without a quad because, they argue, under the new rules you can win without one.
I agree that Plushenko does need to have his programs adjusted to the new rules, but he should not abandon the quad or do it less by any means! He won Olympics in Turin in 2006 with the quad in both programs, and this was already under the new rules. Plus, after the Olympics 2010 in Vancouver there have been some changes to the rules, including a slight increase in points for the quad.


The rules changed since Turin and Evgeni changed too, back then he was 23, now he is 28. Quad isn´t very important anymore not because Lysacek and Chan said so, but because the new system allows skaters to win without quads if they have a smart program. The COP is about collecting points and if you know how to collect them you can win only with doubles or without jumping at all (hypothetically speaking). Evgeni, of course, can jump 4+3+3 or even 2 quads if he is able, but he must have enough stamina to perform the other elements just like 20 years old skaters who jump only 3 and 2. If he can do it and win, that´s fine with me. :plush34:
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Re: Japan Open 2010 - Tokyo, 02.10.2010

Postby Дарина » 05 Oct 2010, 20:13

clairdelalune wrote:The rules changed since Turin and Evgeni changed too, back then he was 23, now he is 28. Quad isn´t very important anymore not because Lysacek and Chan said so, but because the new system allows skaters to win without quads if they have a smart program. The COP is about collecting points and if you know how to collect them you can win only with doubles or without jumping at all (hypothetically speaking). Evgeni, of course, can jump 4+3+3 or even 2 quads if he is able, but he must have enough stamina to perform the other elements just like 20 years old skaters who jump only 3 and 2. If he can do it and win, that´s fine with me. :plush34:


I think that the rules didn't change much since Turin, did they?

The new system allows skaters to win without quads if they have a "smart program" and - what is more important- if the judges support and help them. You never know what level will be given to the spins or to steps and how the artistry will be estimated.
М. Плисецкая: "Пожалуй, Плющенко похож на Годунова. Тоже высокий, статный, эффектный, уверен в себе. Да и эти длинные развевающиеся на ветру и в пируэтах белые волосы. Такой же тип. И темперамент у него есть, и артистизм."
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Re: Japan Open 2010 - Tokyo, 02.10.2010

Postby cristinapongetti » 05 Oct 2010, 20:46

clairdelalune wrote:
Nyssa wrote:I think that winning is not the only thing at stake here. Another big issue at stake is what direction male figure skating will take from this point on: will men do quads in the future or not. The American skaters, like Evan Lysacek and Patrick Chan, have said that they see a future of male figure skating without a quad because, they argue, under the new rules you can win without one.
I agree that Plushenko does need to have his programs adjusted to the new rules, but he should not abandon the quad or do it less by any means! He won Olympics in Turin in 2006 with the quad in both programs, and this was already under the new rules. Plus, after the Olympics 2010 in Vancouver there have been some changes to the rules, including a slight increase in points for the quad.


The rules changed since Turin and Evgeni changed too, back then he was 23, now he is 28. Quad isn´t very important anymore not because Lysacek and Chan said so, but because the new system allows skaters to win without quads if they have a smart program. The COP is about collecting points and if you know how to collect them you can win only with doubles or without jumping at all (hypothetically speaking). Evgeni, of course, can jump 4+3+3 or even 2 quads if he is able, but he must have enough stamina to perform the other elements just like 20 years old skaters who jump only 3 and 2. If he can do it and win, that´s fine with me. :plush34:


The problem is that Plushenko has a different role than a Lys or a Chan...He has to be a model for the young skaters, he really doesn't NEED to win anything else!!!!!!So, I can immagine him in a school, teaching what he knows, and now it's very important don't give up, above all for his "reputation", he has to maintain a high tecnical level, because he's the last one, I really can't see an hypothetical heir....so....
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Re: Japan Open 2010 - Tokyo, 02.10.2010

Postby dimi » 05 Oct 2010, 20:51

Levels are not given by judges rather than technical caller and you dont know who that is everytime.

The thing is not that Rippon scored more than Plush in JO, of course not, who cares for JO marks, the thing is that Rippon scored as much as Lysacek in Olympics, a mark very similar to Evgeni top scores. The rules have changed since torino a little, (one less spin was required in Vancouver, now jumps count more, level 4 in footwork is hard to give anymore, spin requirements) but what has changed a lot was that back in 2006 judges were still thinking 6.0 and were untrained to CoP, now after all these years their pcs come harder and the trend is transitions and backloaded programs, which was not in 2006. Also they didnt have edge calls, and Evgeni is called in his flip now, the same flip he does since ever. Takahashi lost many points in Vancouver because of edge calls. Plus Evgeni then was the No1 dominant skater, there was none to threaten him, when Evgeni was clean nobody could beat him. Even when not clean he still had won some times. Judges had in mind that this was the skater to beat and forgive him for mistakes. It is not normal he got less points in Tango than GOdfather in Torino since in Tango he had more things going on and jumps counted more , this is proof that system has changed. Biggest proof is the reigning Olympic Champion himself. In 2006 , under the same CoP, someone like Lysacek would have never won no matter if he had all his jumps at the end. There was no way the same skate 4 years ago would even be on podium. Judges marked with 6.0 stil in mind and marks were given like candies, this was the big difference.

Plush was getting level 4 footwork bck then and all his spin level 4 , something that now ONLY Takahashi, Lysacek and Chan has gotten, he didnt manage to take level 4 to his footworks in sp and lp, and this is hard to get and depends on caller, like spins. Plush has said that footwork of level 4 requires as much energy as the quad, it is not that easy to improve his steps. What is less hard to get is maximaze your points in jumps, pretty much what you say.So if you jump that perfect well like Evgeni, your big target will be to get the maximum jump points, something that Lysacek got in Vancouver, is Lysacek better jumper than Evgeni??? NO. But CoP thought so. Our only disagreement is that you dont maximaze them in LP by doing a 4-3 and all your jumps in front, if you read well the CoP rules you see we say not something different, we just say to keep his quad and transfer the combos later. This is 6.0 thinking, if you put down rules you see that 4-3 and 4-3-3 in CoP do not worth it anymore, it can be beaten by a skater doing a solo quad and a 3-3. In y opinion Evgeni is who he is because of Mishin and himself, whatever he would be given to skate he would be the same successful skater because of his talent, since talent is there a new choreographer,more CoP expert would be nice. It is a same he did all the sucrifices to lose in Vancouver on a technicality.
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Re: Japan Open 2010 - Tokyo, 02.10.2010

Postby lala630312 » 05 Oct 2010, 20:59

The japanese skaters want to learn the quad. Thank God!! I think, the male figure skating will lose popularity, if all will stay. In USA isn't popular the figure skating. Why? Because they are watching the boring skating for long time.
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Re: Japan Open 2010 - Tokyo, 02.10.2010

Postby cristinapongetti » 05 Oct 2010, 21:09

the score is a convention and, as well as all conventions, changes criteria. It's like fashion, always changes, and follows the rules of trade.But I think that artistry and tecnique remain, always. So I think Plushenko will remain, that's all.
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Re: Japan Open 2010 - Tokyo, 02.10.2010

Postby simona » 05 Oct 2010, 21:25

Image SUCH GRACE...

Image

Sometimes I ask myself why couldn't
they stick to the old system but being
only a bit more severe in giving away
6.0's like candies as Dimi call them..

The new scoringsystem 4 me sometimes
seems to be a bit complicated and takes
away the "shine" from spectacularity...
:plush38:



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Re: Japan Open 2010 - Tokyo, 02.10.2010

Postby dimi » 05 Oct 2010, 21:41

clairdelalune wrote:
dimi wrote:I like the Olympic Champion of our hearts.


Dimi, please promiss me that if you talk to Evgeni you´ll tell him about Camerlengo and all the stuff Eve and you were discussing on Twitter the other day! Please... :mi_ga_et:

:plush26: sorry i laugh i didnt know we had audience on twitter, LOL! Really I m IN NO position to propose evgeni a skate advice :)-(: , but IF I survive the first hello :sh_ок: (and if we even meet him for that matter) I ll try to sneak any info. ;;-)))
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Re: Japan Open 2010 - Tokyo, 02.10.2010

Postby cekoni » 06 Oct 2010, 04:30

dimi wrote:
clairdelalune wrote:Dimi, please promiss me that if you talk to Evgeni you´ll tell him about Camerlengo and all the stuff Eve and you were discussing on Twitter the other day! Please... :mi_ga_et:

:plush26: sorry i laugh i didnt know we had audience on twitter, LOL! Really I m IN NO position to propose evgeni a skate advice :)-(: , but IF I survive the first hello :sh_ок: (and if we even meet him for that matter) I ll try to sneak any info. ;;-)))

Oh, Dimi... you remember that we always had something "important" to tell him, but we never had enough time and opportunity to do so? :plush34: ... not to mention, that we half of that brief time just staring at him with open mouth :-)



P.S. :du_ma_et: I seriously thinking that this whole discussion transfer in the topic:
Ваши идеи для Жени(ВИДЕООБРАЩЕНИЕ ЕП)||Your ideas for Evgeni
... it is much more important than "the colors of a costume" or genre of music... :plush38:
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Re: Japan Open 2010 - Tokyo, 02.10.2010

Postby cekoni » 06 Oct 2010, 09:01

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