Общая дискуссия || General discussion about Evgeni

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Общая дискуссия || General discussion about Evgeni

Postby cekoni » 11 Jan 2014, 01:26

cekoni wrote:Here is one more mistake :sh_ок: ... same error was in the previous AFP article - someone just copied his own mistake :ps_ih:
-------
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/ ... chi-place/

Russia figure skater Plushenko changes mind, demands Sochi place

Moscow (AFP) - Russian figure skating champion Evgeni Plushenko has done an about-turn over next month's Winter Olympics in Sochi, calling on Russian skate officials to choose him ahead of national champion Maxim Kovtun.
...
International Skating Union (ISU) regulations state clearly that each country's winner of the Olympic qualification tournament-- in this case the Russian national championships -- should represent the country at the Games.

But Russian federation chiefs insist they have the option of making their own selections for Sochi.
...

As I suspected, even and Serbian media just translated this AFP wrong agency news :kli_ny: ... I assume it is the same and in other countries :plush34:
Pljušćenko želi na ZOI u Sočiju:
http://www.b92.net/sport/vesti.php?yyyy ... _id=798432

--------------------------------------------------------------

Again "clarifications" of ISU / Olympics rules regarding qualifications at OG:

1- ISU has no influence on decision of the national federations, whom they will send to Olympics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_ska ... lification

2- Every skater who won the Minimum Total Technical Score at any ISU international competition in this season (in Plushy's case it was the "Volvo Cup" in Riga) - can compete at the Olympics
http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-s ... games-2014
Qualification Systems: http://www.isu.org/media/90897/isu-fs-q ... -12-14.pdf
ISU Communication 1839 (Team Event): http://www.isu.org/media/125772/1839-ow ... -event.pdf
ISU Communication 1801: http://www.isu.org/media/108378/1801-en ... s-2014.pdf
ISU Communication 1797: http://www.isu.org/media/108926/1797-de ... vienna.pdf
ISU Special Regulations Single & Pair Skating Ice Dance 2012: http://www.isu.org/media/79156/2012_spe ... edance.pdf

3- Russian championship was not place for qualifications for the Olympics, than for Euros (already told countless times by Russian Skating Fed.)

-------

From the official site of Russian Skating Federation....
Принципы отбора и формирования сборной России:
http://fsrussia.ru/news/999_principy-ot ... oj-rossii/
Утверждено:
Исполкомом ФФККР от 16 мая 2013 г.
Исполкомом ОКР от 27 июня 2013 г.


Сборная команда для участия в Олимпийских зимних играх 2014 г. в Сочи...
....
Кандидатура спортсмена в мужском одиночном катании будет определена на основании заключения экспертной группы и рекомендации всероссийского тренерского совета, принимая главным образом во внимание потенциал данного фигуриста к завоеванию наиболее высокого места в командных и личных соревнованиях на Олимпийских играх.

----------

Principles of selection and forming Russian national team:
approved by:
Executive Committee of Russian Skating Federation - May 16, 2013
Executive Committee of Olympic Committee of Russia - 27 June 2013


National team for the Olympic Winter Games 2014 in Sochi...
....
Candidacy of athlete in the men's figure skating will be determined based on the conclusion of "Expert Group" and recommendations of the All-Russian Council of coaching, mainly taking into account the potential of the skater to conquer the highest place in the team and individual competitions at the Olympic Games.


More examples:
- Japanese choose Daisuke Takahashi for Oly - although he was 5th at Japanese Nationals
- Americans will pick their representative (only ladies for now, how much we know) with "selection committee" viewtopic.php?f=3&t=268&start=920#p81741
....

I'm really tired of stupidity and ignorance :plush34:
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Re: Пресса о Жене, интервью Жени || Press about Evgeni ON Ic

Postby cekoni » 12 Jan 2014, 18:08

let`s talk wrote:
cekoni wrote:http://itar-tass.com/opinions/interviews/1877
09.01.2014
Евгений ПЛЮЩЕНКО: в Сочи планирую выступать и в командных, и в индивидуальных соревнованиях
....


Evgeni Plushenko: I am planning to compete in both Team event and Men singles in Sochi Olympic Games.
...

Many thanks dear! :plush40: :plush39:


So, from this whole translation, can be seen very clearly that Plushy's interview was taken before the New Year, at RN - which means that he not "changed sudden his decision"... as was translated in the English version of "Voice of russia" :kli_ny:
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Re: Пресса о Жене, интервью Жени || Press about Evgeni ON Ic

Postby whitebamboo » 12 Jan 2014, 23:07

cekoni wrote:
let`s talk wrote:
cekoni wrote:http://itar-tass.com/opinions/interviews/1877
09.01.2014
Евгений ПЛЮЩЕНКО: в Сочи планирую выступать и в командных, и в индивидуальных соревнованиях
....


Evgeni Plushenko: I am planning to compete in both Team event and Men singles in Sochi Olympic Games.

...

So, from this whole translation, can be seen very clearly that Plushy's interview was taken before the New Year, at RN - which means that he not "changed sudden his decision"... as was translated in the English version of "Voice of russia" :kli_ny:


Um, I am a little confused, since at the start of this particular interview, he talked about how he spent the New Year holidays with his family...?

However, it is true that his interviews at RN, he definitely said that he intends to compete both in the team and the individual events, such as in this one:
http://www.sovsport.ru/gazeta/article-item/671546

It is true, I think, that they are trying to create the false impression that he "suddenly changed his mind" after two weeks--I am guessing they are trying to discredit him, and also trying to create the impression that he has "given up" after RN.

In fact, I would not even call it "changing his mind". If he was under a false understanding about the rules at the time when he talked about only doing the team competition, then no meaning can be attached to that statement. It's only a matter of finding out the truth! (Though again, I see that Evgeni could not talk about this in the interview, when he was asked about it.)
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Re: Пресса о Жене, интервью Жени || Press about Evgeni ON Ic

Postby cekoni » 12 Jan 2014, 23:23

whitebamboo wrote:
cekoni wrote:...
So, from this whole translation, can be seen very clearly that Plushy's interview was taken before the New Year, at RN - which means that he not "changed sudden his decision"... as was translated in the English version of "Voice of russia" :kli_ny:


Um, I am a little confused, since at the start of this particular interview, he talked about how he spent the New Year holidays with his family...?

:sh_ок: Oh, yeah - it seems that I was so tired, so I confused past tense :kli_ny: Thanks for correction :mi_ga_et: :smu:sche_nie:



whitebamboo wrote:...
However, it is true that his interviews at RN, he definitely said that he intends to compete both in the team and the individual events, such as in this one:
http://www.sovsport.ru/gazeta/article-item/671546

It is true, I think, that they are trying to create the false impression that he "suddenly changed his mind" after two weeks--I am guessing they are trying to discredit him, and also trying to create the impression that he has "given up" after RN.
....

Yes, this interview he really gave on RN, 27.12. :co_ol: :plush34:
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Re: Пресса о Жене, интервью Жени || Press about Evgeni ON Ic

Postby whitebamboo » 13 Jan 2014, 18:49

cekoni wrote:http://www.sport-express.ru/olympic14/figureskating/reviews/39789/
...

Из уважения к великому спортсмену мы даем ему еще одну возможность.
....


I've been thinking about this quote from Gorshkov a little more, and if he really said it in this way, I do not like it. I know that the article is written by Madam E. V. and that maybe I am reading too much into phrases of speech...

I mean, what is "out of respect for the great athlete" and "give him another chance"? The motive should be to determine what would be the best for Russia's results at Sochi. But this sentence reminds me of things the FFKKR said during the disqualification time. It seems to suggest that "we are doing enough for him, special treatments, so whatever happens, it's his fault"...And this "another chance" is the closed test skate, with only the expert group (led by Gorshkov) to see. The public will only have their words for how he skated. I know Gorshkov said other things that may seem like "justifications" on Evgeni's side, but we know those are just surface words.

I've thought that the FFKKR would need to have some consideration for the results at Sochi, and that if things don't go their way, they would have to fear some consequences, and that maybe public opinion will turn against them. But now I think maybe they don't even care about that. As long as they can create an impression that the choice of Kovtun is "reasonable" and "the only choice" somehow, they can still shift the blame onto Evgeni.

It is true that Evgeni lost the RN, but they are doing a lot else to create this impression. This is why they are working so hard to discredit him, trying to create the false impression that he had given up at first, and then "suddenly changed his mind"...That way, even if Evgeni chooses to speak up and tell of everything that really went on, they might make people disbelieve him.

(I am sorry for being rather pessimistic right now. Maybe I read tea leaves too much.)

---------------------------------

Nevertheless, Evgeni needs to be careful of himself when he goes to the test skate. And they need to find a way to have it recorded somehow.

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Re: Пресса о Жене, интервью Жени || Press about Evgeni ON Ic

Postby cekoni » 14 Jan 2014, 01:17

whitebamboo wrote:I've been thinking about this quote from Gorshkov a little more, and if he really said it in this way, I do not like it. I know that the article is written by Madam E. V. and that maybe I am reading too much into phrases of speech...

I mean, what is "out of respect for the great athlete" and "give him another chance"? The motive should be to determine what would be the best for Russia's results at Sochi. But this sentence reminds me of things the FFKKR said during the disqualification time.
.......

Ofc, you are right with alll this recalls - as we say: "who was bitten by a snake, and from a lizard is scares" :plush44:
.... but I'm not sure, that this was really Gorshkov's words (do not forget that EV "quoted" and Ari, who talks bad about Plu shows - which is not, for sure,in his interest to speak). In addition, Gorshkov does not look like me as a person, who gives a thoughtless statement.
In the only one official statement, Gorshkov said:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6&start=2690#p81772
....
Олимпийский чемпион Евгений Плющенко пропускает европейское первенство по причине того, что из-за травмы, последующей операции, лечения и восстановления поздно начал текущий сезон....
Сразу после чемпионата Европы 21 января на олимпийской базе в Новогорске под Москвой пройдут контрольные прокаты с участием Евгения Плющенко. Присутствовать на них будут члены экспертной группы, состоящей из профессионалов. Именно члены этой экспертной комиссии, оценив результаты выступления спортсменов в сезоне и итоги прокатов, определятся с составом олимпийской команды.




whitebamboo wrote:It is true that Evgeni lost the RN, but they are doing a lot else to create this impression. This is why they are working so hard to discredit him, trying to create the false impression that he had given up at first, and then "suddenly changed his mind"...That way, even if Evgeni chooses to speak up and tell of everything that really went on, they might make people disbelieve him.

Some journalists wrote this, not FFKKR... journalists were encouraged (because Plushy once failed), or it's Tarasova's lobby... I believe that it is not FFKKR intention - because to them is not in the interest that the "public and the media" decides about a candidate - I think that in this moment, only FFKKR need calm situation (at least, it is logical for me) :plush38:


whitebamboo wrote:...
Nevertheless, Evgeni needs to be careful of himself when he goes to the test skate. And they need to find a way to have it recorded somehow.

Well, video or not video - will be, how they decide :plush34:
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Re: Пресса о Жене, интервью Жени || Press about Evgeni ON Ic

Postby whitebamboo » 14 Jan 2014, 01:52

Thank you for what you tell me, Cekoni! I am perhaps going through about three changes of feelings every day...All I hope, is that this "test skating" is for real--that they will indeed look at how Evgeni skates and consider it.

I don't know how the general public in Russia think right now. It seems to me that the media has many people against Evgeni. I don't know what the FFKKR wants, whether they have any actual interest in how Russia does in the Olympics.

I saw people talk about how it's some kind of "closed skating"--and argue against Evgeni that way, but I want to mention that at least Mishin said that he did not mind it if it were open to people. It is Piseev who said that it will be closed.

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Re: Пресса о Жене, интервью Жени || Press about Evgeni ON Ic

Postby cekoni » 14 Jan 2014, 02:13

whitebamboo wrote:Thank you for what you tell me, Cekoni! I am perhaps going through about three changes of feelings every day......

Same here :plush29: :plush30: :is_te_ri_ka: .... :plush34:
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Дискуссия || Discussion

Postby whitebamboo » 15 Jan 2014, 23:56

I really feel I should have done this earlier, but I went back and put together some links and quotes from various people, in a slightly more organized way, which, I think, tells the story more clearly. These are all published information--all anyone needed to do was to look.

This will be a little long, but by no means everything. But I think someone unbiased will probably get a good idea of what happened. It will be in four parts.

Part 1. Plans to switch skaters between the team and individual competitions at Sochi

Earlier this season, there were talk in Russian media that the Russian Skating Federation (FFKKR) was seeking a "rule clarification" from the ISU and the IOC regarding alternate skaters in the case when there is only one entry. In November, it is said that this issue has been solved.

a. Tatiana Tarasova interview, Oct. 5:
http://sochi2014.rsport.ru/sochi2014_figure/20131005/691805015.html
Most of the interview, on the surface, was in support of Plushenko, saying that as long as his health permits, his participation in Sochi is "out of question". But in the last paragraph, she mentioned her own student Kovtun:
And maybe to participate in the Olympics , because not yet responded - maybe one will play the same program , and the other - on the other. Regulation is not prohibited , but still do not have permission to do so " - said Tarasova .

(I am afraid many of these quotes will be google translation, but I think they are clear enough.)

b. interview by Alexander Lakernik, vice president of the FFKKR, regarding the "rule clarification" that the FFKKR was seeking, Nov. 8
http://www.team-russia2014.ru/article/figur/12487.html
Here, Lakernik clarifies that if Russia's only men's singles skater is injured or ill after the SP, or after both programs of the team competition, and must withdraw, then an alternate skater can be brought in to compete.

c. Brief interview by Valentin Piseyev, general director of the FFKKR, regarding the rule clarification, Nov. 19
http://sochi2014.rsport.ru/sochi2014_figure/20131119/702142252.html
Piseyev says that although the documents have not been received yet, the FFKKR is confident that the matter has been resolved. In particular:
" Thus, we can put the team competition after spare skaters in individual tournament ," - said General Director FFKKR .


Note: At this point, I want to mention that as far as I could see, only Lakernik spoke about the fact that the rule clarification is for the situation when the original skater has to withdraw due to injury or illness. Another point is that as far as I know, before the RN, neither Plushenko nor his team has ever commented on or mentioned this proposed rule clarification.

d. Immediately, the following conversation on Twitter arose (Nov. 19) among the following sport journalists in Russia. David Nowak, at the time, was the head of RiaNovosti's English language sports wire service, James Ellingworth is a Moscow-based reporter for the same agency, and Andrei Simonenko is of rsport.ru. It is not too much to call them Plushenko haters.
https://twitter.com/David_Nowak1/status/402828515789139969
We've discussed this Twitter convesation before. I find it difficult to summarize their words, but roughly speaking, their idea (which they claim to have "heard from sources" was that Plushenko would not go to RN or Euros, skate only the SP of the team competition, then withdraw so that Kovtun will skate the rest, including the individual competition. They make it sound like this is what Plushenko himself wanted.

e. Now, fast foward to after Plushenko lost the LP at Russian Nationals. This is also something I've already posted about, but on Dec. 26, Nick Zaccardi of NBC had this to say in his reporting of the situation:
http://olympictalk.nbcsports.com/2013/12/26/yevgeny-plushenko-figure-skating-team-event-sochi-olympics-russian-nationals/
This very issue was presented to the International Skating Union in an email last month when reports first surfaced that Plushenko might only want to do the team event.


Note: Again, what Zaccardi heard was that to skate only the team competition was Plushenko's own idea, which suggests that perhaps the whole work of the FFKKR to seek the rule clarification was, in fact for his benefit. But now as we know, Plushenko had the wrong understanding of this "rule clarification", and the only times when he ever talked about skating only the team competition was when he was under this wrong impression (more about this in Part 2). Hence, is this rumor that "Plushenko might only want to do the team event" logical? Could it have come from Plushenko himself, or his team?

If that seems unlikely, then where did it come from?

f. Finally, one more North American media report after RN, on the situation, which quoted Piseyev again. The report was dated Dec. 30, but Piseyev's words were probably a few days earlier:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/131230/figure-skating-tough-choice-russia-after-plushenko-flop
"The final decision on who will be the main representative at Sochi and who will be the reserve will be taken after the European championships," Piseyev said.
....
"Making the decision, we shall also take into consideration the fact that we will be unable to make any substitutions in the men's sections of the team tournament and our skater would have to perform in both short and free skating.

"Otherwise our team will suffer a serious points loss."


Note: Note this statement about "taking into consideration" that no substitutions can be made between the SP and the LP of the team event. If the rule clarification was truly for the contingency of injury, what would be done if the skater gets injured after the SP?

Again, this is not a complete list, but I think at this point, it is fairly clear that the intents of certain people, in particular including Tarasova and Piseyev, were to play the rules by putting one skater--namely, Plushenko--in the team event, and another (Kovtun) in the individual event. The fact that this would require Plushenko to be conveniently "injured" after the team competition does not appear to bother them at all. Further, there are attempts to make it look like this is what Plushenko himself wanted.

-------------

(I'll be back with the next parts in a little while)

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Re: Дискуссия || Discussion

Postby cekoni » 16 Jan 2014, 01:05

Thanks dear for your time and efforts! :plush40: .... now shortly, just few my reminders... :mi_ga_et:


whitebamboo wrote:...
Part 1. Plans to switch skaters between the team and individual competitions at Sochi

Earlier this season, there were talk in Russian media that the Russian Skating Federation (FFKKR) was seeking a "rule clarification" from the ISU and the IOC regarding alternate skaters in the case when there is only one entry. In November, it is said that this issue has been solved.

a. Tatiana Tarasova interview, Oct. 5:
http://sochi2014.rsport.ru/sochi2014_figure/20131005/691805015.html
Most of the interview, on the surface, was in support of Plushenko, saying that as long as his health permits, his participation in Sochi is "out of question". But in the last paragraph, she mentioned her own student Kovtun:
And maybe to participate in the Olympics , because not yet responded - maybe one will play the same program , and the other - on the other. Regulation is not prohibited , but still do not have permission to do so " - said Tarasova .

(I am afraid many of these quotes will be google translation, but I think they are clear enough.)
...

Yes, TAT mentioned this few times in more interviews - she even be "offended", when someone had asked her how this is possible, she said: "Do not you worry about it, I should know more!"
TAT repeated this almost whole october and part of november.... when I think more now about it :du_ma_et: - when she found out that it cant be - she changed the tone of speech and start to pushing Kovtun :plush34:



whitebamboo wrote:...
d. Immediately, the following conversation on Twitter arose (Nov. 19) among the following sport journalists in Russia. David Nowak, at the time, was the head of RiaNovosti's English language sports wire service, James Ellingworth is a Moscow-based reporter for the same agency, and Andrei Simonenko is of rsport.ru. It is not too much to call them Plushenko haters.
https://twitter.com/David_Nowak1/status/402828515789139969
We've discussed this Twitter convesation before. I find it difficult to summarize their words, but roughly speaking, their idea (which they claim to have "heard from sources" was that Plushenko would not go to RN or Euros, skate only the SP of the team competition, then withdraw so that Kovtun will skate the rest, including the individual competition. They make it sound like this is what Plushenko himself wanted.

Not just this - those Russian journalists were first, which "informed" at twitter western journalists about the rumors - Nick Zaccardi, Philip Hersh and others.... only then began to appear articles in the west press - as it is Plushy's idea or "secret deal" Russ.Skat.Federation with him, even before Plushy said anything about it...
If I remember correctly - western journalist mentioned some mail, which was regading this sent to ISU? :plush38: (again about "Plushy's case") :kli_ny:
Also, even and president of the American skating Federation was talking about it.... :ps_ih:


P.S. obvious example, how much damage (to Russian skating, in general), just in 2 months can to produce suddenly awakened unsatiated the desire for quick success one "ambitious" coach :ze_le_ny:
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