Japan Open, Carnival on Ice, Medal Winners - 2011,2012

Другие фигуристы, различные фигурнокатательные мероприятия || Other skaters and events without Evgeni

Re: Japan Open 2011 & gala Carnival on Ice - Saitama, 01.10.

Postby lala630312 » 05 Oct 2011, 13:43

Clairdelalune wote:
cekoni wrote:.... that is, it is impossible that there is SO much difference in the quality of skating, between him and other skaters - it is offensive to the entire rest of the world - skaters, coaches, skating school, FS fans...! :ze_le_ny:



Actually it is possible.



This is not true. And i not just think about Evgeni. And that is very interesting, i read hungarian FS's forums, almost everybody hates Chan. :)-(: This is the future of FS? :ps_ih: ( and not everybody likes Evgeni, because they are not only Evgeni's fans)
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Re: Japan Open 2011 & gala Carnival on Ice - Saitama, 01.10.

Postby cekoni » 05 Oct 2011, 13:44

clairdelalune wrote:
cekoni wrote:.... that is, it is impossible that there is SO much difference in the quality of skating, between him and other skaters - it is offensive to the entire rest of the world - skaters, coaches, skating school, FS fans...! :ze_le_ny:


Actually it is possible.....

No, I will repeat - ISU has changed the rules to suit to Chan's skating! :plush34:
That would be, as if some skater had one leg, and then everyone else must to skate only with one leg! ::yaz-yk:
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Re: Japan Open 2011 & gala Carnival on Ice - Saitama, 01.10.

Postby clairdelalune » 05 Oct 2011, 13:53

cekoni wrote:
clairdelalune wrote:
cekoni wrote:.... that is, it is impossible that there is SO much difference in the quality of skating, between him and other skaters - it is offensive to the entire rest of the world - skaters, coaches, skating school, FS fans...! :ze_le_ny:


Actually it is possible.....

No, I will repeat - ISU has changed the rules to suit to Chan's skating! :plush34:


How? ISU raised the value of difficult jumps but Chan wasn´t a strong jumper before, so this rule clearly wasn´t suiting him. This season they changed the requirements for StSq , now it´s easier to achieve level 4. Chan was already able to do it, so again this rule doesn´t favour him. Where are the changes which favour Chan? :ne_vi_del:
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Re: Japan Open 2011 & gala Carnival on Ice - Saitama, 01.10.

Postby cekoni » 05 Oct 2011, 14:14

clairdelalune wrote: How? ISU raised the value of difficult jumps but Chan wasn´t a strong jumper before, so this rule clearly wasn´t suiting him. This season they changed the requirements for StSq , now it´s easier to achieve level 4. Chan was already able to do it, so again this rule doesn´t favour him. Where are the changes which favour Chan? :ne_vi_del:

- adding evaluation for the fragmented elements
- overestimation of transitions (as main element in Ice Dancing)
- less penalty for the unrotated jumps
- and basic - one measure of evaluating him, and others
...

.... I speak about changes in last 2-3 years and preparations that led up to this :ze_le_ny: .... I see no meaning that other skaters there are only "supporting actors" in this monodrama :plush34:


P.S.... Chan 2009: :ps_ih:
- "I know that judges like me and that I am for them the future of skating"
- "I know that Lori Nichol (my coach and choreographer) praise me at the judges (while she give them the lectures: what is good skating)"
- "Lori and I have laughed watching Plushenko's programs................"
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Re: Japan Open 2011 & gala Carnival on Ice - Saitama, 01.10.

Postby whitebamboo » 05 Oct 2011, 14:43

clairdelalune wrote:Actually it is possible. In my opinion only Kozuka is able to challenge him but unfortunatelly he is not very consistent
.....


And, um, Chan is? :ps_ih: Well, I guess his scores are consistent.

I guess actually what I meant is all the NA experts going on about quads and base scores are not being his haters, actually, my feeling is that they're justifying his scores by distracting attention from what many people (such as Mishin) consider the real and much more glaring issue, namely his PCS (other than SS and TR) and GOE scores. And this in part reflects a general problem with FS scoring right now, which is that PCS scores seem to have less to do with how a skater performs in the given competition, and more to do with what the judges think about him/her in general. (And also that different styles are being discouraged, it's Chan/Nichol = good skating, everything else = bad.) If that is the case, why bother to have competitions at all?

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Re: Japan Open 2011 & gala Carnival on Ice - Saitama, 01.10.

Postby clairdelalune » 05 Oct 2011, 15:51

cekoni wrote:
clairdelalune wrote: How? ISU raised the value of difficult jumps but Chan wasn´t a strong jumper before, so this rule clearly wasn´t suiting him. This season they changed the requirements for StSq , now it´s easier to achieve level 4. Chan was already able to do it, so again this rule doesn´t favour him. Where are the changes which favour Chan? :ne_vi_del:

- adding evaluation for the fragmented elements
- overestimation of transitions (as main element in Ice Dancing)
- less penalty for the unrotated jumps
- and basic - one measure of evaluating him, and others
...

.... I speak about changes in last 2-3 years and preparations that led up to this :ze_le_ny: .... I see no meaning that other skaters there are only "supporting actors" in this monodrama :plush34:


Just because Chan is a dominant skater doesn´t mean that other skaters are "supporting actors". I doubt that Eldredge, Tim Goebel, Lambiel, Joubert, Sandhu, Honda, Sasha Abt, etc were "supporting actors" when Yagudin & Plush were dominating figure skating. They were great skaters with their own legacy and they have/had a lot of fans. :-(
Chan´s victory at JO was ridiculous of course, but who should have win, Amodio, Kozuka, Dai? :ne_vi_del: Chan fell 3 times on difficult elements, he didn´t fall while walking on ice. Let´s punish falls more and we´ll have again a bounch of quadless skaters. :-(
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Re: Japan Open 2011 & gala Carnival on Ice - Saitama, 01.10.

Postby clairdelalune » 05 Oct 2011, 15:57

whitebamboo wrote:And this in part reflects a general problem with FS scoring right now, which is that PCS scores seem to have less to do with how a skater performs in the given competition, and more to do with what the judges think about him/her in general.


It has always been like that, the trend didin´t begin with Chan. Judges are not able to follow the rules which say that skaters should be judged based on a particular performance, not based on reputation or what they are able to do, etc. This is a huge fail of the system and COP was not able to fix it. They just pretend to have fixed it.

whitebamboo wrote:And also that different styles are being discouraged, it's Chan/Nichol = good skating, everything else = bad.


This is the real drama, that´s why FS is losing a lot of fans. :-(
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Re: Japan Open 2011 & gala Carnival on Ice - Saitama, 01.10.

Postby whitebamboo » 05 Oct 2011, 16:31

clairdelalune wrote:
Let´s punish falls more and we´ll have again a bounch of quadless skaters. :-(


I believe that falls were punished more under the 6.0 system, yet during the late 90's and early 2000's, everyone did quads.

I think encouraging quads is important and good, but I wonder if by keeping down the penalty on falls, the ISU is indirectly devaluing actually successful quads, by not distinguishing them enough from unsuccessful attempts (and easier jumps). Anyways, with Chan's scoring that's not the main issue: he was being propped up even before he started doing quads.
Last edited by whitebamboo on 05 Oct 2011, 18:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Japan Open 2011 & gala Carnival on Ice - Saitama, 01.10.

Postby clairdelalune » 05 Oct 2011, 17:19

whitebamboo wrote:
clairdelalune wrote:
Let´s punish falls more and we´ll have again a bounch of quadless skaters. :-(


I believe that falls were punished more under the 6.0 system, yet during the late 90's and early 2000's, everyone did quads.

I think encouraging quads is important and good, but I wonder if by keeping down the penalty on falls, the ISU is indirectly devaluing actually successful quads. Anyways, with Chan's scoring that's not the main issue: he was being propped up even before he started doing quads.


That´s because top skaters used to have more than one quad and under the 6.0 there was no way somebody could win witout quad. Now they can move all the jumps in the second part of the program and good-bye quad. :plush34: Lysacek´s life will be easier!!! :-)
I don´t think they are devaluing successful quads, Chan and Artur landed a lot of successful quads last season.
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Re: Japan Open 2011 & gala Carnival on Ice - Saitama, 01.10.

Postby cekoni » 05 Oct 2011, 23:05

clairdelalune wrote:Just because Chan is a dominant skater doesn´t mean that other skaters are "supporting actors". I doubt that Eldredge, Tim Goebel, Lambiel, Joubert, Sandhu, Honda, Sasha Abt, etc were "supporting actors" when Yagudin & Plush were dominating figure skating. They were great skaters with their own legacy and they have/had a lot of fans. :-(
Chan´s victory at JO was ridiculous of course, but who should have win, Amodio, Kozuka, Dai? :ne_vi_del: Chan fell 3 times on difficult elements, he didn´t fall while walking on ice. Let´s punish falls more and we´ll have again a bounch of quadless skaters. :-(

You're wrong - when Plushy made mistakes, others are winning (Joubert at the European 2004) ... Chan did not even reach the heights of Plushy and Yags, but judges "virtual" (in advance) give him high scores, for something - which he will MAYBE skate best in this season, with a given program. :plush34:

I dont talk about his first place, than about his scores - do not mix things! :kli_ny:

No - one solution is to reduce the number of elements that are evaluated and count in a program - you can not count every step and score.
As I once said: with the summation of all things, we get a "Frankenstein patchwork" programs :plush44: ... not complete rounded meaningful programs, which can be viewed with pleasure. :plush34:
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