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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby whitebamboo » 29 Jun 2011, 19:14

cekoni wrote:
.... but to me is appears that "Jewish Melody" is not so very different from the "old" Plushenko - his exibition programs from the past were always much more unusual than this program. Apart from a couple of interesting new steps and movements, I do not see what is in it is so new, unusual, difficult, customized to the new rules? What there Plushy shows, which has not before?
Plushy can always take out of it "novelties", and incorporate them into new programs, regardless of whether he still working with Zhulin, or not.

In relation to David - you forget that the most spectacular programs and "unprecedented" things - by what Plushy became known and different from other skaters is David Avdish work! :plush45: ... maybe he is no longer up to date with modern skating, but he in the course, as you said - with what Plushy can and wants to show the public. :a_g_a:

And maybe Plushy wants to go further - beyond what we have seen? :mi_ga_et:
:ts_ss: In any case, I have a hunch that the music for the Short program is very, veeeeeeeeery modern - maybe something in the style of hard rock, like Scorpions .... so, and choreography is adapted to that style? :hi_hi_hi:


Hmm, I guess what I mean about "Jewish Melody" being different is more about the general mood and feeling of it, rather than the specific steps and moves? You are absolutely right that Plushy's exhibition programs were always more unusual than his competition programs--which is why I am more interested in seeing this particular program in competition. In exhibitions Evgeni is pretty much unlimited, but if you ask people their impressions about the "competition Plushenko", usually you get words like powerful, passionate, dominant, kingly, even godlike. It's not completely accurate, because I do think that no two of his programs are completely alike, and he really changes himself--in terms of what he expresses--every year or two. But in general, when I think of his previous competition programs, I always get a sense that the person on ice is extraordinary and grand and not like the rest of us--and that is the part which is being emphasized. (I am not expressing this very well.) But this program? It just my own personal interpretation, of course, but I see someone who is knocked about and bullied, someone who struggles with life, someone almost ordinary. He becomes life-sized (instead of larger-than-life), and vulnerable, and that's something I don't remember as much from his mature competition programs before. I know someone might say it's taking away from that special "divine" aura of Plushy's, but if I may sound completely ridiculous for a moment here, what is more amazing and risky for a god than to come down to earth? (I think he has shown the vulnerable side of him before in exhibition programs (Prisoner, Svetcha, Malade), but in those programs, I still get a sense of grandeur about them.)

I know all this is extremely personal and just about what I happen to like, myself, and that is not important; what is important is what the judges like. But I also can imagine that there is a possible relation. For example, I am of course totally inexpert, but I think the program already has more transitions than what he's had before. Now this is really going to sound vague and strange, and it's very possible that I'm making all this up in my mind, but I sometimes get the feeling that some of the powerful/passionate/divine programs Evgeni had before are precisely the type that--purely aesthetically--could be hurt by too many transitions. I have also heard people characterize Evgeni's skating as "spare", in that he has no unnecessary moves (and they mean that as a praise). It's the kind of thing which needs "negative space", too much that is "busy" and "frilly" can distract and dilute. (Remember how Yuri once said "art is in what you leave out"?) However, the problem is that the ISU seems to currently promote the busy, non-stop type of skating, and seems to have a "more-is-better" philosophy towards transitions. But once one takes away the overt grandeur and holds the power in, goes down to "human-size", somehow I have the feeling that it may be possible to put in more busyness, more little things that count toward transitions and such, but still have them contribute to the overall expression, instead of detracting from it. Because, I don't know, human life is fussy and busy like that? (Sorry, that's off-in-the-clouds philosophical again.) Now of course Plushy could have done a transition-packed COP-friendly program, like what Lori Nichol does for Chan, for instance, without worrying about all this nonsense, or how everything is going to fit, and I was completely ready to accept him sacrificing some art for PCS. But when I saw this program, well, maybe I'm imagining too much about it, but I got the feeling that he's still trying to keep the art, too, and that made me ridiculously happy. So, I don't know, it's another reason why I hope he would keep it, because I think the COP and the current ISU philosophy are very restrictive artistically, and I don't know if there are that many ways of doing it.

I do agree there are many parts of the "Jewish Melody" program, for instance the specific step sequences, still seemed to be recycling things Plushy has done before. But there were also new things, and the program was still unfnished. There are still lots of places that can be changed and added to. In fact, and this may be completely wishful thinking for my part, but I was thinking that Mishin saying "there are blanks in the LP" could still possibly refer to that? Of course, I only read the English translation, and I have no idea how it was really said in Russian, so maybe I am completely wrong.

For David, actually one strange thought I had is what he might bring to the "Maybe I, Maybe You" exhibition program--if Plushy is intending to ever skate it again. I know people have complaints about that program, but I for myself really like the general direction he seemed to be taking that program, and I like some of the ideas Marina had. There are places that looked awkward, though, and I wonder what David would or could do to this program. I don't know, it just somehow seems like something that might fit him. I don't care about how it fits the fashionable criteria for what constitutes "good skating". The kind of notions the ISU and "experts" are promoting are restrictive enough for competitive programs, I don't need to see them in an exhibition.

clairdelalune wrote:
We are not talking about shows, we are talking about COMPETITION!!!! It doesn´t matter what David did for him in the past and how "unusual" it was. When we say he needs something different, it means that he needs a program adapted to the rules, COP FRIENDLY. Different means:
- it has (good) transitions, Evgeni is not doing 100000 crosscuts
- it´s not frontloaded
- good footwork- level 3 + GOE,
- good choreography- Evgeni is not flailing his arms
- etc, I don´t remember now.
It´s easy, he just needs someone who can create such a program, it´s nothing philosophical!!!!!



I agree that Evgeni needs a COP friendly program, but if that's all one's aiming for, one might as well just go with Lori Nichol...I know how important it is to please the judges, in order to win, but purely selfishly and idealistically, and just for myself, I also hope that Evgeni can somehow find a way of doing it without becoming like everybody else.

I suspect the frontloading has a lot to do with Evgeni's physical issues. If he can improve his physical stamina then I think it would not be so much of an problem, otherwise there is no point in putting more to the second half if he's going to end up struggling with it. As for footwork levels and GOE, remember how Lysacek had his footwork sequences upgraded from level 3 to level 4 at the Olympics without any actual changes? I hope to see good footwork that gets high levels and GOE, but I also want to mention that sometimes the GOE and the levels are not 100% related to what one actually does on ice. As for "flailing his arms", well, it depends on what one means by good choreography, I think. Personally I think "flailing" is appropriate sometimes, but whether the judges think so is another matter. (I also think the "Jewish Melody" program probably won't have much of that.)

dimi wrote:
I wanted to say that when i say I d like him to keep Zhulin , i dont necessarily mean I want him to keep this program he did in italy. First of all the music, he has done hava nagila before and it is a dated music, there are one gazilion music choices from clasical to more contemborary music, I dont know why evgeni would chose hava nagila again and what he can expresses through that. I dont want this music to be kept all in all.



I completely agree with you about keeping Zhulin, especially in terms of emphasizing edges, etc. With the music, I remember Evgeni saying in April that he wanted to change the music (at the least), too? I don't know, the music, as it was in Torino, now sounds kind of provisional to me. Hava Nagila is Jewish, and it is dance music with a strong rhythm, so it's one of the obvious choices that kind of fits the image, if one hasn't had the chance to work more seriously on the music yet. To me, I still think that even within this particular program, the specific piece of music is less important than the feeling he's trying to convey, so it definitely can be changed.

With Stravinsky, I do admit there are some Stravinsky pieces that I'd be curious about seeing Evgeni skate, but in general, I am not sure that "better music" necessarily makes for a better program. Ultimately, it has to be music that Evgeni connects to. By the way one thing that really annoyed me about Evan Lysacek and his Olympics program was that he said later that he didn't even like Stravinsky, or Russian music in general, but that with some lessons from a Russian dance, he somehow learned to be more Russian and managed to beat Plushy "at his own game" (or something similar to that). Now it's not very clear what he meant by Plushy's own game (since for one thing Evgeni wasn't skating to Russian music in competition that season), but it kind of sounded to me like it is "being Russian", somehow. If that is the case, frankly if I were Russian I'd be pretty offended that some non-Russian person actually thinks he became more Russian than Evgeni Plushenko with a couple of lessons...
Last edited by whitebamboo on 29 Jun 2011, 21:48, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby Kudryavka » 29 Jun 2011, 19:58

dimi wrote: I dont know why evgeni would chose hava nagila again and what he can expresses through that. 

Anti-aging? :plush35:
He didn't compete for three years, but as soon as I saw him, I knew that there was a true Olympic Champion on the ice. - Takahiko Kozuka, Rostelecom Cup 2009
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby clairdelalune » 29 Jun 2011, 23:07

whitebamboo wrote:
I agree that Evgeni needs a COP friendly program, but if that's all one's aiming for, one might as well just go with Lori Nichol...I know how important it is to please the judges, in order to win, but purely selfishly and idealistically, and just for myself, I also hope that Evgeni can somehow find a way of doing it without becoming like everybody else.


All I know is that Evgeni will be very sad when he loses to Chan or Kokuka and I'm sure his fans won't be verry happy either. Right now he has no chance to beat them if they skate clean, but he can increase the chances and a good program is the most important step. There's no point to return in competitions if you don't care about judges or rules anyway. The rules are clear and they apply to all skaters so Evgeni can't be different. 6.0 system doesn't exist anymore, Evgeni has to move on if he wants to compete in Sochi.
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby whitebamboo » 29 Jun 2011, 23:23

clairdelalune wrote:All I know is that Evgeni will be very sad when he loses to Chan or Kokuka and I'm sure his fans won't be verry happy either. Right now he has no chance to beat them if they skate clean, but he can increase the chances and a good program is the most important step. There's no point to return in competitions if you don't care about judges or rules anyway. The rules are clear and they apply to all skaters so Evgeni can't be different. 6.0 system doesn't exist anymore, Evgeni has to move on if he wants to compete in Sochi.


I have not said that he should do things the same as they were under the 6.0 system, or that he should not move forward, or that the COP rules do not apply to him, nor have I seen anyone here say such things. I have not said that he doesn't or shouldn't care about judges or rules or winning in competition, nor have I seen anyone here say such things. So frankly, I don't see where is the argument. In fact, Evgeni himself has already said many times that he needs to move forward and work with the rules. I only speak for myself when I say that I can understand it if he happens to feel the need to do it in ways that retain some of his own characteristics, because I believe such ways exist.

As for winning or losing against Chan or Kozuka, well, let's also remember the fact that Plushy will be 29 when the new season starts, and he'll be competing against people nearly 10 years younger than him. Transitions take physical stamina, too. (And the fact that Chan has been known to win competitions against people who skated clean even when he fell 4 times.) COP-friendly choreography is--just in case I still haven't repeated it clearly enough--of course extremely important and necessary for winning, and I absolutely want to see it for the next season, but it's not a guarantee and it's not the only factor.
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby lilywang » 30 Jun 2011, 00:33

I think "Godfather" is choreographed by ice dancers, and it has more interesting steps compared with Plushy's 6.0 era programs. I also hope he can work with ice dancers more.
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby Дарина » 30 Jun 2011, 00:39

Как я поняла, Эдвин аранжирует музыку для Жени. Мы не знаем, какая это музыка, почему мы должны волноваться заранее? Имидж Жени пострадает от работы с Авдышем или Мартоном, потому что у многих любителей ФК на них аллергия :kli_ny: ?- ну и что, лишь бы ему было удобно катать новые программы!

Такахаши и Жубер работали с кем надо, но они оба неудачно провели сезон. Гачинского же только ленивый не критиковал за хореографию, но в результате он отлично закончил сезон, да и публика принимала его - теплее некуда, и в Швейцарии, и в России.
----------------------------------------------------------
whitebamboo, thank you from the bottom of my heart for your posts :co_ol: :plush39: .
I agree with you about Zhulin. He is very stylish but he is superficial :plush38:
I agree with almost everything you said!
М. Плисецкая: "Пожалуй, Плющенко похож на Годунова. Тоже высокий, статный, эффектный, уверен в себе. Да и эти длинные развевающиеся на ветру и в пируэтах белые волосы. Такой же тип. И темперамент у него есть, и артистизм."
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby dimi » 30 Jun 2011, 04:09

whitebamboo wrote:I know how important it is to please the judges, in order to win, but purely selfishly and idealistically, and just for myself, I also hope that Evgeni can somehow find a way of doing it without becoming like everybody else.


These are the best words I ve read for a while and they sum up exactly my feelings. :plush31:
While we whine and analyze here (i m talking about me) what Plush should or not do, I totally trust him somehow that he will choose what it is best for him. I dont want him to be one more of the pack and hoenstly I dont think he ll ever be. He is really with a star above his head the moment he enters the arena. I remember in competitions while the skater before him was skating and he would enter from backstage in the twilight zone mode looking at nobody, people from the audience(not just us the super fans) would turn the head and watch him walk around instead of watching the other skater with a whisper it s Plushenko going across the rows.
Concerning if music is important, I somehow think known pieces drag in the audience much more than unknown ones, ex tamgo, which was a hit with the audience but still I could think Libertango for example would raise them more.

I think at this point CHan is unbeatable no matter what the rest will do, if he skates relatively clean but truth is I dont care much if Evgeni loses to Chan, I mean I dont mind. He has a long way to generate the feelings Evgeni causes when he skates.
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby cekoni » 30 Jun 2011, 04:18

clairdelalune wrote:.... Different means:
- it has (good) transitions, Evgeni is not doing 100000 crosscuts
- it´s not frontloaded
- good footwork- level 3 + GOE,
- good choreography- Evgeni is not flailing his arms
- etc, I don´t remember now.
It´s easy, he just needs someone who can create such a program, it´s nothing philosophical!!!!!

And... what will remain then of Evgeni? :sh_ок: ... and what's wrong with that? :)-(:

I can not answer in english everything what I think, because of my bad english :nez-nayu:
Shortly - everyone is a little bit right :plush45: ... but not in the right, those who ask him to completely change! :st_op:
Why? I think that there is do not need further explanation. :plush34:
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby clairdelalune » 30 Jun 2011, 10:33

whitebamboo wrote:
clairdelalune wrote:All I know is that Evgeni will be very sad when he loses to Chan or Kokuka and I'm sure his fans won't be verry happy either. Right now he has no chance to beat them if they skate clean, but he can increase the chances and a good program is the most important step. There's no point to return in competitions if you don't care about judges or rules anyway. The rules are clear and they apply to all skaters so Evgeni can't be different. 6.0 system doesn't exist anymore, Evgeni has to move on if he wants to compete in Sochi.


I have not said that he should do things the same as they were under the 6.0 system, or that he should not move forward, or that the COP rules do not apply to him, nor have I seen anyone here say such things. I have not said that he doesn't or shouldn't care about judges or rules or winning in competition, nor have I seen anyone here say such things. So frankly, I don't see where is the argument. In fact, Evgeni himself has already said many times that he needs to move forward and work with the rules. I only speak for myself when I say that I can understand it if he happens to feel the need to do it in ways that retain some of his own characteristics, because I believe such ways exist.

As for winning or losing against Chan or Kozuka, well, let's also remember the fact that Plushy will be 29 when the new season starts, and he'll be competing against people nearly 10 years younger than him. Transitions take physical stamina, too. (And the fact that Chan has been known to win competitions against people who skated clean even when he fell 4 times.) COP-friendly choreography is--just in case I still haven't repeated it clearly enough--of course extremely important and necessary for winning, and I absolutely want to see it for the next season, but it's not a guarantee and it's not the only factor.


Whitebamboo, I appreciate your posts and your opinions and I agree with you, to me the most important thing is to see Evgeni skating to beautiful programs, which can grab the audience, like he always does. But if Evgeni is not successful next season, judges and Russian Federation will "retire" him, I hope you understand what I mean. He won´t be beaten only by Chan or Kozuka, he won´t have any chance to make the podium. :-( I don´t think Evgeni would like to finish his career like this. If he loses because he is old, it´s ok, nowbody can ask him to do something impossible, but losing because he didn´t chose a good choreographer and a nice music, don´t you think it´s very stupid?

dimi wrote: He is really with a star above his head the moment he enters the arena. I remember in competitions while the skater before him was skating and he would enter from backstage in the twilight zone mode looking at nobody, people from the audience(not just us the super fans) would turn the head and watch him walk around instead of watching the other skater with a whisper it s Plushenko going across the rows.


That´s because he was dominating the field, Dimi.
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby dimi » 30 Jun 2011, 15:48

No i believe he radiates an aura that it is difficult to describe. and of course he is the most famous skater in non hard core fans, like Michelle Kwan.
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