Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mishin

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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby cekoni » 09 Dec 2011, 21:15

maolmi wrote:
Таня wrote:
cekoni wrote: .... I think that for the Russian FS Federation, Olympics is much more important than "ordinary" Worlds. :mi_ga_et:


До Олимпиады ещё долго, а если они почувствуют, что Женя "может" здесь и сейчас, то им будет очень трудно закатать губу обратно :-):

Тем более надо места на следующий год заробатывать.

But there is Mishin to :pa_la_ch: them! :-)
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby Таня » 09 Dec 2011, 21:19

cekoni wrote:But there is Mishin to :pa_la_ch: them! :-)


Будем надеяться :plush47: Не хотелось бы ситуации, как перед Турином... :plush37:
Евгений Плющенко: "Спорт - это моя жизнь. Спортивные достижения во славу России - это моя религия. Для меня это не просто слова, это суть всего, что я делал и делаю в спорте."
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby clairdelalune » 09 Dec 2011, 22:00

cekoni wrote:If it comes to the preservation of Plushy's health, I'm sure no one will insist on the World Champ :a_g_a: .... I think that for the Russian FS Federation, Olympics is much more important than "ordinary" Worlds. :mi_ga_et:


Euros are even more ordinary than Worlds. They should send him to Worlds instead of Euros, he has to start competing against Chan and the japanese skaters, this would be the best preparation for Sochi. :plush37:
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby cekoni » 10 Dec 2011, 00:11

clairdelalune wrote:Euros are even more ordinary than Worlds. They should send him to Worlds instead of Euros, he has to start competing against Chan and the japanese skaters, this would be the best preparation for Sochi. :plush37:

Why should be Plushy compete on the harder competition, if he is not 100% healthy and ready? :du_ma_et: :ne_vi_del:
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby lovplush » 10 Dec 2011, 00:23

clairdelalune wrote:Euros are even more ordinary than Worlds. They should send him to Worlds instead of Euros, he has to start competing against Chan and the japanese skaters, this would be the best preparation for Sochi. :plush37:


Actually if you think about it, Worlds is more for mental challenge as long as the judges keep consistent with their judging. The program would be the same (of course modifications might be needed to improve the program), so if the attitude is to do your job, whether Plushy faces Chan or Japanese skaters or not is not a big deal at least for this season, since Plushy does not have enough chances to compete due to the injuries.

But let us wait and see. From Plushy's interview, I think he is eager to compete on both Euros and Worlds.
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby clairdelalune » 10 Dec 2011, 21:35

cekoni wrote:
clairdelalune wrote:Euros are even more ordinary than Worlds. They should send him to Worlds instead of Euros, he has to start competing against Chan and the japanese skaters, this would be the best preparation for Sochi. :plush37:

Why should be Plushy compete on the harder competition, if he is not 100% healthy and ready? :du_ma_et: :ne_vi_del:



Euros won't be easy either, Fernandez is very, very strong. If everything goes ok and Evgeni wins, it means that at Worlds he will have only one or two true rivals, Chan and a japanese skater, probably. I don't think he'll stay out of podium. More competitions mean the opportunity to increase his PCS.
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby cekoni » 10 Dec 2011, 22:34

clairdelalune wrote:Euros won't be easy either, Fernandez is very, very strong. If everything goes ok and Evgeni wins, it means that at Worlds he will have only one or two true rivals, Chan and a japanese skater, probably. I don't think he'll stay out of podium. More competitions mean the opportunity to increase his PCS.

With the current attitude of judges towards Chan, nobody can beat him! :ps_ih:

While Mishin (Piseev, anyone...) do not succeed to change something with criticism, not must be allowed to Chan wins Plushy in that way. In addition, the "tactical" is wrong that people to get used that Plushy can be defeated (with current "pro-chan" judging) - if it becomes "normal", it will remain forever :plush35:

I think it's some of Mishin's considerations. In any case, we will see what will happening in future... :plush34:
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby clairdelalune » 10 Dec 2011, 23:04

cekoni wrote:
clairdelalune wrote:Euros won't be easy either, Fernandez is very, very strong. If everything goes ok and Evgeni wins, it means that at Worlds he will have only one or two true rivals, Chan and a japanese skater, probably. I don't think he'll stay out of podium. More competitions mean the opportunity to increase his PCS.

With the current attitude of judges towards Chan, nobody can beat him! :ps_ih:

While Mishin (Piseev, anyone...) do not succeed to change something with criticism, not must be allowed to Chan wins Plushy in that way. In addition, the "tactical" is wrong that people to get used that Plushy can be defeated (with current "pro-chan" judging) - if it becomes "normal", it will remain forever :plush35:

I think it's some of Mishin's considerations. In any case, we will see what will happening in future... :plush34:


Defeat Chan with "criticism"????? :sh_ок: Next year the Worlds are in CHANADA!!!!!! The chances that someone beats Chan are 0,000000000001%. Plushy has to defeat Chan with a strong program, not Mishin or Piseev. That's what we need, more politics and everybody will scream that Chan has been robbed, if he ever loses to Plushy!!!! :plush30: That's what you want, the 2002 scandal reloaded????? :plush34: Nobody can judge in advance if Chan is beatable or not. :nel-zya:
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby lovplush » 10 Dec 2011, 23:26

clairdelalune wrote:
cekoni wrote:

While Mishin (Piseev, anyone...) do not succeed to change something with criticism, not must be allowed to Chan wins Plushy in that way. In addition, the "tactical" is wrong that people to get used that Plushy can be defeated (with current "pro-chan" judging) - if it becomes "normal", it will remain forever :plush35:

I think it's some of Mishin's considerations. In any case, we will see what will happening in future... :plush34:


Defeat Chan with "criticism"????? :sh_ок: Next year the Worlds are in CHANADA!!!!!! The chances that someone beats Chan are 0,000000000001%. Plushy has to defeat Chan with a strong program, not Mishin or Piseev. That's what we need, more politics and everybody will scream that Chan has been robbed, if he ever loses to Plushy!!!! :plush30: That's what you want, the 2002 scandal reloaded????? :plush34: Nobody can judge in advance if Chan is beatable or not. :nel-zya:


I guess what Cekoni meant is that under current judging situations, no body can beat Chan. Under certain circumstances to let plushy to compete while he cannot perform 100% is not worthy. If people establish the image of Chan is invicible to anybody (god helps us!!! He is really good at skating but he can seldom perform a clean program during a whole season. I think he is really unique since nobody can rule the FS with so many un-cleaned programs, that is just WRONG!!!!!), it is difficult to reverse the situation.

Actually Chan is robbing our feelings by getting into the first place (ok maybe this time he deserves it since nobody really provided a clean program, but season best?) with could-he-ever-skate-clean program, personally I really curious to know if Plushy can perform a clean good program against Chan's crapy performance, what would be the result.
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby whitebamboo » 11 Dec 2011, 02:22

lovplush wrote:
clairdelalune wrote:
cekoni wrote:

While Mishin (Piseev, anyone...) do not succeed to change something with criticism, not must be allowed to Chan wins Plushy in that way. In addition, the "tactical" is wrong that people to get used that Plushy can be defeated (with current "pro-chan" judging) - if it becomes "normal", it will remain forever :plush35:

I think it's some of Mishin's considerations. In any case, we will see what will happening in future... :plush34:


Defeat Chan with "criticism"????? :sh_ок: Next year the Worlds are in CHANADA!!!!!! The chances that someone beats Chan are 0,000000000001%. Plushy has to defeat Chan with a strong program, not Mishin or Piseev. That's what we need, more politics and everybody will scream that Chan has been robbed, if he ever loses to Plushy!!!! :plush30: That's what you want, the 2002 scandal reloaded????? :plush34: Nobody can judge in advance if Chan is beatable or not. :nel-zya:


I guess what Cekoni meant is that under current judging situations, no body can beat Chan. Under certain circumstances to let plushy to compete while he cannot perform 100% is not worthy. If people establish the image of Chan is invicible to anybody (god helps us!!! He is really good at skating but he can seldom perform a clean program during a whole season. I think he is really unique since nobody can rule the FS with so many un-cleaned programs, that is just WRONG!!!!!), it is difficult to reverse the situation.

Actually Chan is robbing our feelings by getting into the first place (ok maybe this time he deserves it since nobody really provided a clean program, but season best?) with could-he-ever-skate-clean program, personally I really curious to know if Plushy can perform a clean good program against Chan's crapy performance, what would be the result.


Yes, this exactly. Politics in skating is an ugly thing, but the fact is that it is there. I think what Cekoni meant is if you stay quiet and don't fight to express your voice, then you are yielding the field of public opinion to others, and they will dictate what is or isn't "good skating" according to their own interests. You can try to follow the trend, but then you'll always be at a disadvantage compared to them.

Of course we'd like to see a good program from Plushy, and I think it is necessary if her were to try to win, but who gets to control what is or isn't a "good" program? More generally, who gets to decide what is or isn't to be valued in skating? I saw some instruction videos for judges on how to give PCS scores, and nearly all the "positive" examples were programs choreographed by Nichols. They're setting up this one style above all others. And yes, Chan has great skating skills (when he doesn't lose control of it) and lots of transitions, but why should he get automatically higher PE and IN scores as well? I've seen people argue, "but he has the best skating skills, and that's the most important". But then why are there 5 separate categories in PCS then? Why not just say, "skating skills are worth a maximum of 50 points" and be done with it? And even within skating skills, there are different styles. In my opinion, Plushy has great skating skills, but it is more of a style that emphasizes ease, lightness and naturalness instead of a lot of very deep edges and twists-and-turns (the question of speed aside). Why should one style be valued above the other? Who gets to dictate that?

With Chan's victories during this and the last season, I believe some of them were deserved, some, maybe not so much. But it doesn't matter. Basically they are defining the standards as "good program = Nichols", and "good skating = Chan", and when that happens, then indeed Chan is unbeatable no matter how well or badly he or others do. The whole thing becomes a farce: and what is the point of even having a competition, then?

As for the 2002 scandal, personally I don't think that is the same. In that situation, there were some evidence of alleged underhanded dealings (though as I understood it, the facts were never completely clear). I sure do hope desperately that it doesn't get to a point where people get used to it enough to actually think Chan (or any skater, for that matter, even Plushy) is supposed to always win somehow because he is "just better", or that if anyone happens to beat him then it automatically means he must be robbed. Because when that happens, figure skating indeed would have stopped being a sport.

When it comes to the question of this season's Worlds, I don't know, frankly that will depend on a lot of factors. Let's just try to take it one competition at a time, perhaps?

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