Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mishin

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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby clairdelalune » 12 Dec 2011, 18:58

lala630312 wrote:
clairdelalune:
Exactly! The program is beyond his abilities, but due to the huge margin between him and the other skaters, he didn´t change anything. Watch the entry into the 3Lz, he fell twice on that jump (Japan Open and GPF), yet, I believe he´ll keep it. No matter how many mistakes he does on jumps, the PCS will save him. His philosophy is sacrifice the jumps but save the transitions, which I think is a smart approach.


I don't agree. Many people like the jumps, the jumps are beautiful, and risky. Let's look into the future. Many young skaters will learn to skate like Chan, because it exercise an early age. They learn that the jumps are not as important. What will happen in the races? The races will be boring. The best figure skater should know the most difficult jumps, and be able to show the tournaments. This is not icedance. I'm sure that if it happens,I won't watch the figure skating. I have a question: When was the figure skating most popular? Not today....


Jumps are a very important part of FS but it seems that ISU is not able to create a system which rewards jumps as well as transitions, spins, skating skills, etc. It was as pity to see skaters with strong basics like Plushy, Sasha Abt, Yagudin doing countless crosscuts into the jumps. :plush34:
Íf people are so angry with Chan´s scores they should watch Jason Brown, the JGPF gold medallist who´s not able to jump 3As or quads. :sh_ок: But he has amazing spins. :plush33:
About the popularity of FS, I think it decreased when they introduced the new system because the audience doen´t understand the scores very well. When they used to diplay the scores on the screen, during the 6.0 era, the audience felt they were more involved into the programs, judging process, etc. My mother for example, who was watching FS since she was a tennager stopped watching because of that. :-(
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby lovplush » 12 Dec 2011, 19:01

clairdelalune wrote: Exactly! The program is beyond his abilities, but due to the huge margin between him and the other skaters, he didn´t change anything. Watch the entry into the 3Lz, he fell twice on that jump (Japan Open and GPF), yet, I believe he´ll keep it. No matter how many mistakes he does on jumps, the PCS will save him. His philosophy is sacrifice the jumps but save the transitions, which I think is a smart approach.


Oh, I think I miss the last sentence since I agree with all your statement before that sentence. The only thing is that you are purely describing a phenomenon: Chan can afford to make mistakes because his PCS can save him. And if his team is really thinking of sacrificing the jumps to secure the transitions and PCS, it is very misleading and not healthy to the Sport.

Because Chan's PCS is INFLATED. He should not receive high PCS when he made so many mistakes. PCS is not all about SS and TN, and sadly in Chan's case, it is.

BTW I agree with lala, jumps are the most exciting element for the MAN's figure skating. When the audiences provide with the loudest applaud? After the jumps-clean ones. Of course Chan can jump difficult jumps, but please!!! jump them CLEANLY.
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby clairdelalune » 12 Dec 2011, 19:19

lovplush wrote:Because Chan's PCS is INFLATED. He should not receive high PCS when he made so many mistakes. PCS is not all about SS and TN, and sadly in Chan's case, it is. .


I´ve read on a forum that judges are not trained no cut the PCS if the program is not clean /has falls. The system completely ignores this matter.They should fix the rules and Chan will stop winning with messy programs. But if they punish falls more, quads will die again.
What should they do??? :ny_tik: :plush38: :kli_ny:

Sorry for my poor English. :smu:sche_nie:
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby whitebamboo » 12 Dec 2011, 20:10

clairdelalune wrote:
whitebamboo wrote:
Chan does have great speed and edges (again, when he doesn't lose control of it) and is indeed a very remarkable skater, and Aranjuez is a very difficult program. But in a way, to say "he falls so much because it's so difficult" is just another way of saying "it's beyond his abilities", and in my opinion should not be used as a justification for not penalizing him for the falls. And I think all the talk about the difficulty of his programs is somewhat moot, because so far this season, he hasn't demonstrated the ability to actually skate it through cleanly. Maybe he'll manage it later in the season, but until then, he should be evaluated based on what he actually manages to do, and not on the theoretical level of difficulty of his programs.


Exactly! The program is beyond his abilities, but due to the huge margin between him and the other skaters, he didn´t change anything. Watch the entry into the 3Lz, he fell twice on that jump (Japan Open and GPF), yet, I believe he´ll keep it. No matter how many mistakes he does on jumps, the PCS will save him. His philosophy is sacrifice the jumps but save the transitions, which I think is a smart approach.


Well, he doesn't always save the transitions, either. :-)

Chan's approach is smart for him--and only for him, because he gets special treatment. As for how to devise a system that encourages difficult jumps/footwork/spins/transitions fairly and maybe if you even want to throw in artistry....Well, frankly no system is of use if the people who implement them--the judges--are not interested in fairness. I think the COP system, compared to the old one, in fact give the judges more room for messing with the scores, and to hide behind the various components of both the TES and PCS. In addition to viewers feeling that they do not understand the scoring, the ISU and the "experts" are basically telling them: you are not supposed to understand the scoring. This is very alienating and I think harmful to the sport.

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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby GiaSesshoumaru » 12 Dec 2011, 23:51

Chan's scores were definitely inflated. He should have been at least four points lower. I'm not saying that he should have beat Takahashi, because as much as I love Daisuke, his short program was not as good as Patrick's. However, the margin should not have been as high. Five points higher, maybe, but not eleven. It's disappointing. Chan is a beautiful skater, and his program at World's was brilliant, but however, it was not here and he did not deserve to be scored as high. Like I said, though, he did deserve to win over Takahashi - at least here, just not be as much as he did. I'm waiting for Four Continents and Worlds, and see what happens between Takahashi's scores and Chan's. I would like to see them both do clean programs, both performing at their best and then see what the judges say.

Takahashi should won the free skate, though.

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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby cekoni » 13 Dec 2011, 07:03

clairdelalune wrote:...
You have to watch him live, Chan is faster than anybody else. Aranjuez is indeed difficult, that´s why he falls so much, the entries on the jumps are very difficult. :a_g_a:

Not faster than Plushy ::yaz-yk: ... I think that Chan had a much more "faster" last year's program "Phantom.." - except that he added a few jumps, because which definitely slowed down the speed in this year's program "Aranjuez" :plush34:




lala630312 wrote:...
I think, Chan is like a Swiss watch. Accurate, perfect, but no emotion. :plush34:

P.S.: "perfect" -except, when he fall :)-(:

For me he is much more as Swatch watches - accurate, but "plastic" ... if you understand me? :-)

http://store.swatch.com/childrens/watches/page/1/FLS031
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby clairdelalune » 13 Dec 2011, 11:24

cekoni wrote:
clairdelalune wrote:...
You have to watch him live, Chan is faster than anybody else. Aranjuez is indeed difficult, that´s why he falls so much, the entries on the jumps are very difficult. :a_g_a:

Not faster than Plushy ::yaz-yk: ... I think that Chan had a much more "faster" last year's program "Phantom.." - except that he added a few jumps, because which definitely slowed down the speed in this year's program "Aranjuez" :plush34:


You mean faster than Plushy in his prime or now? If you´re talking about Evgeni´s prime I don´t know, I have to check the videos on youtube, but it´s very difficult to appreciate speed on youtube. But he clearly is faster than Evgeni was in 2010, Takahashi is faster too, IMO. I´m not talking about the current season because I did not see Evgeni in competitions, yet. Phantom was faster, indeed, and he skated it much better last season especially at Worlds, his jumps were cleaner. This seson his footwork is messy too, in my opinion. :ne_vi_del:
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby cekoni » 13 Dec 2011, 14:43

clairdelalune wrote:You mean faster than Plushy in his prime or now? If you´re talking about Evgeni´s prime I don´t know, I have to check the videos on youtube, but it´s very difficult to appreciate speed on youtube. But he clearly is faster than Evgeni was in 2010, Takahashi is faster too, IMO....

I mean that much more difficult and faster were Plushy's Tango, at least on Euros 2010 and CoR 2009 :plush34:

About past Plushy's programs and "his prime" - i dont want even to compare Plushy and any other skater :)-(:
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby clairdelalune » 13 Dec 2011, 14:52

cekoni wrote:
clairdelalune wrote:You mean faster than Plushy in his prime or now? If you´re talking about Evgeni´s prime I don´t know, I have to check the videos on youtube, but it´s very difficult to appreciate speed on youtube. But he clearly is faster than Evgeni was in 2010, Takahashi is faster too, IMO....

I mean that much more difficult and faster were Plushy's Tango, at least on Euros 2010 and CoR 2009 :plush34:


No way!!! Chan can be compared to great skaters in their prime and Evgeni in his prime was 1000000 better than Evgeni in 2010. And not only in his prime, in 2006 too. Evgeni from 2006 could have beaten everybody at the 2010 Olys or Euros with a bad leg and triples only.
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby lovplush » 13 Dec 2011, 16:20

Put the speed aside since I think if Plushy wants, he can skate pretty fast.

The one thing I have noticed which Chan (or Lori) does better than Plushy is the ice coverage. Plushy's program mainly covers 2/3 of the ice with limited portion used to cover the other 1/3. But I think if this would affect the result, Plushy has no probrom in fixing it. We all know how Plushy interacts with the audience during the shows;D

But there is really no point in fighting here. Chan is a great skater and the most COP oriented one. He is certainly the BEST in the heart/mind of his fans. And Plushy is the BEST in our heart. Time will show who is better.

As fans, we will support Plushy to pursue his dream no matter what would be the result. Wish Plushy good luck in RN! Cannot wait to see him skating again. Miss him so much.
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