На тренировках || Evgeni on training

Любим! Надеемся! Верим!
We love you! We believe in you!

Re: Женя на тренировках || Evgeni on training

Postby Nat7 » 30 Apr 2012, 23:42

писала "Kudryavka"
As for "All fans of Evgeni".. I don't know it is "all". Maybe here are not few people who wait for Avdish's return. * I have to say this. I love Avdish works. Really. Still I say I wanted to see Zhenya + CoP friendly choreography. :du_ma_et:
[/quote]

You are right. Not the correct English translation. Not " all fans " , but " many fans " in this forum,

want to , that the programs for Zenja did Kamerlengo.

Sorry. for not very good English.
Nat7
 
Posts: 35
Joined: 09 Apr 2012, 15:31
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: Женя на тренировках || Evgeni on training

Postby whitebamboo » 01 May 2012, 01:25

Nat7 wrote:All fans of Eugene want that the program was done by other choreographer.


Well, I am afraid that I don't really feel that I need to be included in the "all".

To be more precise, if Evgeni decides to skate a program by another choreographer, and it's a beautiful program (as subjective as that admittedly is), and he feels connected to it, then yes, I will be very happy. But the way I feel about it is that it is completely up to him and his team to decide. As for Camerlengo, if I actually see--with my own eyes--a wonderful program choreographed by him which suits Evgeni well, which then Evgeni decided not to use, maybe then I'll be a little rueful (for the program itself), but I will respect the decision of Evgeni and his team. But right now? No one has even seen even a single move, or heard more information than one snippet or two from Mishin. I think it's great that Evgeni and his team feel that they can try to learn things from different people, and that is good enough for me. I am not going to pin my hopes blindly any one choreographer or another, no matter how "COP-friendly" or "fashionable". And I am not going to talk about Evgeni and his team as if they don't know what they're doing or if they don't understand figure skating.

And yes, I know that people will say that if he doesn't get this or that "name" then he won't be able to beat Chan or Takahashi or he won't be on the podium or whatever. Well, to that I can only say that none of us have magical crystal balls. Call me cynical, but when it comes to scores, I believe what people say about "old" and "new" and "good" and "bad" choreography are more politics than anything else. I've seen people repeat the statements that anything Avdish choreographs or anything Plushenko (or Russian skaters or European skaters or whoever, for that matter) skates is "bad" choreography, whatever "bad" stands for. And sometimes they say it without even looking at the programs. Well, this is called prejudice. And some people deliberately spread it because they want to push their own agendas. And to be honest, I don't like seeing that kind of prejudice being internalized by Plushenko's own fans.

I am not saying that people have to love every bit or any of the choreography by David Avdish or anything like that. However, I still believe that if there is something about anyone's choreography that one likes or dislikes, then one should first have seen the actual program. And one should have some understanding of why specifically one feels that way, whether from a personal point of view or from the COP point of view. But right now, this entire discussion seems to me to be based on zero information of what Camerlengo has actually done or intends to do for Evgeni.

So at this point, for myself I just want him to skate what he wants. When it comes to competitiveness and winning, well, surely I'd have thought that by now, his own fans know how much he wants to fight to win. And I'd have thought that by now, his own fans know that he and his team know more about figure skating than they themselves.


P. S. Sorry, since we're already talking about choreographers, there's another thing that I just wanted to get off my chest. Since 2010, I've at times seen Plushenko's fans say--in so many words--that he "should get rid of" Avdish. I understand that people are saying this sort of thing because they want Evgeni to win, and they feel that some other choreographer would give him a better chance of winning. However, whether one likes David's choreography or not, given how close David is to Evgeni, how long they have been together, how much they have been through together, and how important he is to Evgeni as a team-member and friend, and also what kind of person Evgeni is, I believe such statements--put in such words--are just completely inappropriate things to say, coming from his fans. (Frankly, I would mind it a lot less from non-fans, or even haters.)

(Just to clarify, this is not directed at anyone in this particular discussion, actually, because nobody here right now has said anything like that. It's just something that has been bothering me a great deal for a long time.)


P. P. S. I just read the above post, and I apologize if it came across as a little aggressive-sounding. I am certainly not trying to appear righteous or a "bigger fan than thou" or anything. It's just that I seem to remember having this same type of discussion last year....(And that time, there was at least some information about the programs themselves.)
Last edited by whitebamboo on 01 May 2012, 05:35, edited 1 time in total.

These users thanked the author whitebamboo for the post (total 8):
Грин (10 May 2012, 22:19) • Таня (01 May 2012, 17:28) • ilpulcino (01 May 2012, 12:26) • cekoni (01 May 2012, 05:21) • Phrazey (01 May 2012, 03:30) • lilywang (01 May 2012, 02:33) • lovplush (01 May 2012, 02:27) • lala630312 (01 May 2012, 01:40)
Rating: 33.33%
 
User avatar
whitebamboo
 
Posts: 310
Joined: 04 May 2011, 00:47
Has thanked: 1847 times
Been thanked: 646 times

Re: Женя на тренировках || Evgeni on training

Postby dimi » 01 May 2012, 02:23

I think people are wishing to see another choreographer because Plushy has a huge potential that maybe is not fully explored. I think his possibilities are endless. And surely many people are better than one. He already has the best coach. I think it is good he has david that he trusts but one person can only do some great things, and certainlt Advish has made great programs for Evgeni, but surely any new person can add different perspective and some variety. Skating is also art, so it is like working with different artists. He can be a Monnet but also a Van Gogh. Also Evgeni even with not a big name as a choreographer gets big scores, so I believe he would get bigger ones with a more known choreographer and less effort, it is part of the system. I dont want him to stop working with Advysh but in addition to him with some others as well, I dont want him to suffer so much for a comeback, and get less scores because someone else has Lori Nichol but half Evgeni's talent.
Image

These users thanked the author dimi for the post (total 6):
Nat7 (01 May 2012, 18:12) • Таня (01 May 2012, 17:29) • clairdelalune (01 May 2012, 15:41) • lala630312 (01 May 2012, 09:35) • simona (01 May 2012, 03:12) • whitebamboo (01 May 2012, 02:36)
Rating: 25%
 
User avatar
dimi
 
Posts: 1615
Joined: 18 Jun 2009, 15:55
Location: Greece
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 323 times

Re: Женя на тренировках || Evgeni on training

Postby whitebamboo » 01 May 2012, 05:26

dimi wrote:I think people are wishing to see another choreographer because Plushy has a huge potential that maybe is not fully explored. I think his possibilities are endless. And surely many people are better than one. He already has the best coach. I think it is good he has david that he trusts but one person can only do some great things, and certainlt Advish has made great programs for Evgeni, but surely any new person can add different perspective and some variety. Skating is also art, so it is like working with different artists. He can be a Monnet but also a Van Gogh. Also Evgeni even with not a big name as a choreographer gets big scores, so I believe he would get bigger ones with a more known choreographer and less effort, it is part of the system. I dont want him to stop working with Advysh but in addition to him with some others as well, I dont want him to suffer so much for a comeback, and get less scores because someone else has Lori Nichol but half Evgeni's talent.


Oh, I certainly do understand what you mean, and I certain do agree with what you are saying that "many people are better than one"! I also think that is what Evgeni is doing, and what he's always tried to do, as well as the circumstances allowed. I guess, mainly I just don't see how people are already drawing the conclusion that he is stopping to work with Camerlengo (as they seem to be interpreting it) at this point, based on the snippet of information that Mishin has mentioned so far. I guess, for myself, I also do not see it as a matter of "all or nothing". Even if he does not end up doing a program that is completely due to Camerlengo, I am certain that he will take something useful from having worked with him.

I also agree that "one person can only do some great things". Personally, I've imagined so many different things I would for myself love to see Evgeni skate, so many directions I would have loved to see him try. But, well, I want to comment that he himself is also only one person, though a very multi-faceted one. I believe he is an artist himself, and not a blank canvas for other artists to paint on. To my eyes, he already has a far, far wider range than any other skater I can think of, and experimented with more different styles. Nevertheless, even Monet and Van Gogh themselves couldn't be "both Monet and Van Gogh". Each artist has something that makes him what he is. They may experiment with different possibilities, go through different stages, push their own boundaries (all of which things I personally believe Evgeni has done and continues to do, btw), but in order to be genuine, those things have to be dictated by what is inside of them, what they feel. And in the end, Evgeni has to skate what is inside of him, what he feels.

Well, I don't know if I am expressing myself all that well. Last season, Evgeni already tried many different things, many different choreographers, many different images, many different programs. For myself, I can say that I still sometime regret what could have been, with the Jewish Melodies LP choreographed by Zhulin, though Tango de Roxanne has already become one of my favorites Plushenko LPs. Nevertheless, this does not mean that all the previous work by Evgeni and all the others before last season began were wasted, because even if he does not skate one particular program, he is capable of learning from different people, an taking elements that are useful to him.

And I remember what Evgeni said about that process in an interview. He said, "it was so difficult, so difficult". I can't quite describe how I felt when I first read that. Humbled, I guess. Perhaps how I feel is that we fan of course can always argue and say that we want him to do this or that, for our own sakes or for what we think of as his sake, but in the end, it is always a million times harder to actually do things than to sit here and type on a computer.

As to the matter of scores (which I see as completely separate from the artistic issue) , I for myself don't know that anyone can predict what will happen next season ....There is so much politics in the judging of skating, and I think the choreographer's name is one part of that, but by no means the only one...We'll see.

These users thanked the author whitebamboo for the post (total 8):
Грин (10 May 2012, 22:19) • bigeyegugu (06 May 2012, 15:54) • Nat7 (01 May 2012, 18:12) • Таня (01 May 2012, 17:30) • ilpulcino (01 May 2012, 12:25) • lovplush (01 May 2012, 10:26) • lala630312 (01 May 2012, 09:38) • Phrazey (01 May 2012, 07:56)
Rating: 33.33%
 
User avatar
whitebamboo
 
Posts: 310
Joined: 04 May 2011, 00:47
Has thanked: 1847 times
Been thanked: 646 times

Re: Женя на тренировках || Evgeni on training

Postby cekoni » 01 May 2012, 05:33

dimi wrote:... so I believe he would get bigger ones with a more known choreographer and less effort, it is part of the system....

I am primarily because of that agree that Plushy should to take a "known" choreographer - someone who have already built a "good reputation" in the countries which attacked Plushy due the so-called "non-existing the choreography" :ps_ih:

As for other things, by me - Plushy could be to the end of life to work only with Avidsh, which is his friend :a_g_a:
Image
User avatar
cekoni
Administrator
 
Posts: 24627
Joined: 03 Jun 2009, 09:19
Location: Serbia
Has thanked: 3635 times
Been thanked: 21292 times

Re: Женя на тренировках || Evgeni on training

Postby whitebamboo » 01 May 2012, 05:48

cekoni wrote:
dimi wrote:... so I believe he would get bigger ones with a more known choreographer and less effort, it is part of the system....

I am primarily because of that agree that Plushy should to take a "known" choreographer - someone who have already built a "good reputation" in the countries which attacked Plushy due the so-called "non-existing the choreography" :ps_ih:

As for other things, by me - Plushy could be to the end of life to work only with Avidsh, which is his friend :a_g_a:


You know, this reminds me of the American (NBC?) Universal Sports' commentary on Evgeni's 2012 European Championship LP. They threw in a sentence "the choreography is not brilliant", and that was it. No explanation of why they thought so, no further elaboration--basically it was just a throwaway shot, completely unsupported, but they still wanted to influence their listeners with it. In the absense of actual explanations, I can only call it prejudice. (But then again, they even made fun of Evgeni's accent while speaking English, which to me was simply tacky beyond belief. :plush43: ) On the other hand, the British Eurosport commentators, Chris Howarth and Nicky Slater, praised the choreography at the end of Evgeni's program, and they said something about what they liked about it, that there were surges of energy and small breaks, that it didn't feel "frantic" to them, etc. To me, that is a much more sensible way of talking about skating.

(I am sorry, I do seem to be awfully wordy tonight...I'll be quiet now. :-) )

These users thanked the author whitebamboo for the post (total 8):
Грин (10 May 2012, 22:20) • Nat7 (01 May 2012, 18:12) • Таня (01 May 2012, 17:30) • clairdelalune (01 May 2012, 15:41) • ilpulcino (01 May 2012, 12:24) • simona (01 May 2012, 10:29) • lovplush (01 May 2012, 10:25) • lala630312 (01 May 2012, 09:39)
Rating: 33.33%
 
User avatar
whitebamboo
 
Posts: 310
Joined: 04 May 2011, 00:47
Has thanked: 1847 times
Been thanked: 646 times

Re: Женя на тренировках || Evgeni on training

Postby lovplush » 01 May 2012, 10:27

whitebamboo wrote:(I am sorry, I do seem to be awfully wordy tonight...I'll be quiet now. :-) )


Totally off-topic, I love your post whitebamboo :plush39: You always have similar thoughts with me but is able to express them in words, which I could not :-)
Image
Plushenko Chinese Fans Club: http://www.plushycnfanclub.org/

These users thanked the author lovplush for the post (total 3):
lala630312 (01 May 2012, 19:41) • Дарина (01 May 2012, 14:19) • ilpulcino (01 May 2012, 12:24)
Rating: 12.5%
 
User avatar
lovplush
 
Posts: 558
Joined: 01 Jun 2010, 01:03
Location: Belgium
Has thanked: 1096 times
Been thanked: 909 times

Re: Женя на тренировках || Evgeni on training

Postby clairdelalune » 01 May 2012, 16:02

cekoni wrote:
dimi wrote:... so I believe he would get bigger ones with a more known choreographer and less effort, it is part of the system....

I am primarily because of that agree that Plushy should to take a "known" choreographer - someone who have already built a "good reputation" in the countries which attacked Plushy due the so-called "non-existing the choreography" :ps_ih:

As for other things, by me - Plushy could be to the end of life to work only with Avidsh, which is his friend :a_g_a:


Wilson, Camerlengo, Lori, Zhueva, Tarasova, Bobrin etc, are well known and respected choreographers all over the World. They didn't appear yesterday, anyone can check their works on the Internet. They collaborated with top skaters for decades, skaters from USA, Canada, France, Russia, Italy, etc.
There are a lot of people which do not like Advish's choreographies very much and I'm one of them. Does it matter if I'm from Russia, Spain, China, Japan, etc? :ne_vi_del:
ImageImage

These users thanked the author clairdelalune for the post:
Nat7 (01 May 2012, 18:12)
Rating: 4.17%
 
User avatar
clairdelalune
 
Posts: 877
Joined: 15 Apr 2010, 15:04
Has thanked: 60 times
Been thanked: 171 times

Re: Женя на тренировках || Evgeni on training

Postby cekoni » 01 May 2012, 17:18

clairdelalune wrote:...
There are a lot of people which do not like Advish's choreographies very much and I'm one of them. Does it matter if I'm from Russia, Spain, China, Japan, etc? :ne_vi_del:

It will be matter for N/A commentators and ISU judges :)-(:
Image
User avatar
cekoni
Administrator
 
Posts: 24627
Joined: 03 Jun 2009, 09:19
Location: Serbia
Has thanked: 3635 times
Been thanked: 21292 times

Re: Женя на тренировках || Evgeni on training

Postby Таня » 01 May 2012, 17:22

lovplush wrote:
whitebamboo wrote:(I am sorry, I do seem to be awfully wordy tonight...I'll be quiet now. :-) )


Totally off-topic, I love your post whitebamboo :plush39:


Me too :-): I totally agree with you, whitebamboo +10000000000 :plush39:
Евгений Плющенко: "Спорт - это моя жизнь. Спортивные достижения во славу России - это моя религия. Для меня это не просто слова, это суть всего, что я делал и делаю в спорте."

These users thanked the author Таня for the post:
lala630312 (01 May 2012, 19:42)
Rating: 4.17%
 
User avatar
Таня
 
Posts: 807
Joined: 18 Mar 2010, 18:57
Location: Moscow-USA
Has thanked: 3546 times
Been thanked: 846 times

PreviousNext

Return to Всё о Жене || Everything about Evgeni

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

cron