Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mishin

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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby clairdelalune » 11 Dec 2011, 21:44

whitebamboo wrote:But Evgeni didn't make an average of 1-2 mistakes per SP and 2-3 mistakes per LP....And even though he had plenty of haters even then, I don't recall any of his wins were controversial as some of Chan's were.

However, it is true that clean skates are a lot rarer with other skaters, too, this season. But even nowadays, I do think that any other skater who makes as many mistakes as Chan does would be seen as a "headcase".


Evgeni skated mostly under 6.0, when a fall on a quad or a combo use to kill a skater's chances to win. Under COP he could have won easily with a bounch of mistakes.
Some of his scores (aka 2006 Olympics) are still controversial.
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby whitebamboo » 11 Dec 2011, 21:48

clairdelalune wrote:
whitebamboo wrote:But Evgeni didn't make an average of 1-2 mistakes per SP and 2-3 mistakes per LP....And even though he had plenty of haters even then, I don't recall any of his wins were controversial as some of Chan's were.

However, it is true that clean skates are a lot rarer with other skaters, too, this season. But even nowadays, I do think that any other skater who makes as many mistakes as Chan does would be seen as a "headcase".


Evgeni skated mostly under 6.0, when a fall on a quad or a combo use to kill a skater's chances to win. Under COP he could have won easily with a bounch of mistakes.
Some of his scores (aka 2006 Olympics) are still controversial.


I was talking about placement rather than scores. In any case Evgeni did not win with a bunch of mistakes even under the COP system. Other than Evgeni, I also don't see any other skater winning under the COP system with as many mistakes as Chan makes, with such a high level of frequency.

I see people say how he has more difficult programs than others, which is true, and it's good that he's trying to do them. But so far, he hasn't generally proven the ability to actually handle his programs cleanly, so frankly I think his level of difficulty is, in some sense, hypothetical.

Chan is a fine skaters and he has lots of strengths compared to other skaters competing currently, but I don't think he is comparable with Evgeni, nor do I think his position in men's skating now is comparable to Evgeni's between 2002 and 2006.
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby clairdelalune » 11 Dec 2011, 21:54

whitebamboo wrote:
clairdelalune wrote:
whitebamboo wrote:But Evgeni didn't make an average of 1-2 mistakes per SP and 2-3 mistakes per LP....And even though he had plenty of haters even then, I don't recall any of his wins were controversial as some of Chan's were.

However, it is true that clean skates are a lot rarer with other skaters, too, this season. But even nowadays, I do think that any other skater who makes as many mistakes as Chan does would be seen as a "headcase".


Evgeni skated mostly under 6.0, when a fall on a quad or a combo use to kill a skater's chances to win. Under COP he could have won easily with a bounch of mistakes.
Some of his scores (aka 2006 Olympics) are still controversial.


I was talking about placement rather than scores. In any case Evgeni did not win with a bunch of mistakes even under the COP system.

Chan is a fine skaters and he has lots of strengths, but I don't think he is comparable with Evgeni, nor do I think his position in men's skating now is comparable to Evgeni's between 2002 and 2006.



The field is stronger now, IMO. But if nobody can't skate two clean programs, Chan will keep winning. By the way I've read a comment on ISU's discussion board wich I think describes very well what's happening now in FS.

"PCS is ruled by north american interpretation and Chan is totally considered the best PCS skater. You have the videos made Lori Nichol and Joe Inman and sent out to all the judges and they give the seminars where some Nichol choreographed skater is the Best and deserves all the highest marks and all that. It's a total philosophy that is being implanted in all the judges and just like in Ice Dance the new philosophy is whatever Z/S do is the best and deserves all the highest scores and I don't think that Lori Nichol should be involved in teaching people or judges or anything at all."
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby lovplush » 11 Dec 2011, 21:59

Chan is the dominant skater at the moment, and if this ridiculous trend continues, he will be the most dominant skater in the figure skating history.

Ok, jokes are over. Chan is a very good skater, I have to admit. But to dominate this sports with so many mistakes is just sad. In Plushy's era, one might argue that to lose every time to the same person is not a encouraging thing, but nobody would doubt Plushy's vistory since he has the difficulty, the artistry (not the nowadays ISU proved artistry it seems), and most importantly, he skated cleanly. We should be really grateful to him since he gave us so many clean programs to watch.

Now sure Chan has very difficult program, if he can present the program to full extend, nobody will argue about his dominating status. But he cannot, so give him the points he deserves.

BUT LET US WAIT AND SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN ON RN. And as long as Plushy is happy with what he is doing, I am just glad that he is still competing and will leave us more beautiful programs. I love his skating no matter what rank he would be placed.
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby whitebamboo » 11 Dec 2011, 22:04

clairdelalune wrote:
The field is stronger now, IMO. But if nobody can't skate two clean programs, Chan will keep winning. By the way I've read a comment on ISU's discussion board wich I think describes very well what's happening now in FS.

"PCS is ruled by north american interpretation and Chan is totally considered the best PCS skater. You have the videos made Lori Nichol and Joe Inman and sent out to all the judges and they give the seminars where some Nichol choreographed skater is the Best and deserves all the highest marks and all that. It's a total philosophy that is being implanted in all the judges and just like in Ice Dance the new philosophy is whatever Z/S do is the best and deserves all the highest scores and I don't think that Lori Nichol should be involved in teaching people or judges or anything at all."


Thanks for this quote! I think it expresses what I'm trying to say much better than I could.
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby lovplush » 11 Dec 2011, 22:06

clairdelalune wrote:"PCS is ruled by north american interpretation and Chan is totally considered the best PCS skater. You have the videos made Lori Nichol and Joe Inman and sent out to all the judges and they give the seminars where some Nichol choreographed skater is the Best and deserves all the highest marks and all that. It's a total philosophy that is being implanted in all the judges and just like in Ice Dance the new philosophy is whatever Z/S do is the best and deserves all the highest scores and I don't think that Lori Nichol should be involved in teaching people or judges or anything at all."


Yes it is what happens now in FS, and what ISU does now is to define the figure skating into a single mode and force everybody to follow their opinions. If everybody surrenders to this, let us just ask the skaters to skate one single program made by Lori Nichol and give the points based on their performances. Why bother.
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby cekoni » 12 Dec 2011, 00:20

Great discussion girls! :bra_vo: :plush45:


clairdelalune wrote:... By the way I've read a comment on ISU's discussion board wich I think describes very well what's happening now in FS.

"PCS is ruled by north american interpretation and Chan is totally considered the best PCS skater. You have the videos made Lori Nichol and Joe Inman and sent out to all the judges and they give the seminars where some Nichol choreographed skater is the Best and deserves all the highest marks and all that. It's a total philosophy that is being implanted in all the judges and just like in Ice Dance the new philosophy is whatever Z/S do is the best and deserves all the highest scores and I don't think that Lori Nichol should be involved in teaching people or judges or anything at all."

I talk about that all the time :plush34:
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby Gabry » 12 Dec 2011, 00:48

I'm afraid the above is true. At present north-American style and interpretation are considered to be the best and a model to follow by all top skaters in the world. I happened to read an article where Chan stated that Lori Nichol and himself used to watch Evgeni's programs and roared with laghter because of his "Russian" coreography! As far as judges are involved in figure skating nobody can avoid they favour one particular skater in every competition and thus make him unbeatable: it's just a matter of one point or even less.
Thank you for your valuable information all the time!
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby Дарина » 12 Dec 2011, 01:01

Gabry wrote: I happened to read an article where Chan stated that Lori Nichol and himself used to watch Evgeni's programs and roared with laghter because of his "Russian" coreography!


Yes, they laughed before Vancouver, but after Evgeni made podium and Chan finished 5th they stopped laughing and began to learn quad jumps. :plush6:
М. Плисецкая: "Пожалуй, Плющенко похож на Годунова. Тоже высокий, статный, эффектный, уверен в себе. Да и эти длинные развевающиеся на ветру и в пируэтах белые волосы. Такой же тип. И темперамент у него есть, и артистизм."
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Re: Женя и его тренер А.Н.Мишин || Evgeni and his coach Mish

Postby lovplush » 12 Dec 2011, 01:54

Gabry wrote: I happened to read an article where Chan stated that Lori Nichol and himself used to watch Evgeni's programs and roared with laghter because of his "Russian" coreography!


I guess to them Plushy's programs are laughable judging from the COP system, but it does not automatically leading to the conclusion that Plushy's programs are not beautiful. On the contrary, Plushy's programs are emotionally powerful and showing great energy and passion. Moreover, Plushy is a very elegant skater and this needs great gift of artistry by nature.

In all, Nichol is great in putting way too many things in a program to ensure high points, and Chan is fast enough to finish doing them although he might fall couple of times. So good jobs to Nichol and Chan. But that does not mean their programs are the most please to the eyes (hearts), especially when Chan falls all the time.
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