Общая дискуссия || General discussion about Evgeni

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Re: Общая дискуссия || General discussion about Evgeni

Postby whitebamboo » 11 Jun 2014, 05:05

5. And after Evgeni withdrew from the individual event, the Minister of Sport, Vitaly Mutko, talked about Kovtun’s situation at the time when replacement was still possible. Note that this interview was dated the evening of Feb. 13, the same night of Evgeni’s withdrawal, and before Evgeni said anything at all about this particular matter:
http://www.vz.ru/news/2014/2/13/672480.html
"Then in training today (Thursday) on the training - back again. Replacement had to be done at night after the team competition. Kovtun And, incidentally, was not ready to come, "- he said.


6. On Feb. 14, Piseyev said this regarding Kovtun in an interview:
http://www.championat.com/olympic14/new ... iadoj.html
"Unfortunately, he got sick before the Olympics . But he - our future, all in front of Maxim . Soon the World Cup, which will be held in Japan. He would go there and hopefully will perform adequately " - quoted Piseyev ITAR-TASS.


7. Now in this interview of Evgeni’s, he mentioned the same thing regarding Kovtun’s inability to come to Sochi:
http://www.sovsport.ru/sochi/texts/text-item/685221
- You have also heard that Maxim Kovtun night was off the phone , no one could find ?
- There is no comments, comments his coach that Maxim Kovtun ill. Sports minister also said that they tried to seek, have done everything possible , Maxim was not…


I wanted to put Mutko and Piseyev’s interviews about, because some people might think that Plushenko came up with this story to “blame” Kovtun—in part because his interview was the only one that got widely reported. The interviews by others show that it was definitely not only Evgeni who was saying this. Another small detail: in this particular interview, the reporter was the one who supplied the detail that Kovun’s phone was off.

8. I recall that after this, Kovtun’s coach first said that Plushenko had the responsibility to skate both the team and the individual events (therefore implying that they themselves did not take the idea or the responsibilities of the first alternate seriously):
http://sport.mail.ru/sochi/news/16977313/

Maybe I won’t make direct quotes from this interview at this point…Later, in another interview, Buyanova that they were waiting for the call. (I don’t have that particular exact links with me right now. I can find it later.)

Of course, we cannot know for certain what exactly was Kovtun’s situation on the night of Feb. 9 and the morning of Feb. 10 (before 10 AM), or how much an effort the FFKKR really put into looking for him. But really, none of this had anything to do with Evgeni. Anything he knew at the point could only be what the FFKKR officials told him.

9. Later on Feb. 17, Evgeni gave an interview with CNN:
http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v ... e.cnn.html

-I am not able to say right now what's happened, what happened. But if you ask the president of the Russian federation, he gonna explain everything.

-What has happened?
-He gonna explain it to you. He gonna explain why I tried to skate, why didn't skate the other skaters. But anyway—
….
-We won Olympic games team event. So after that, federation said, okay, do you want skate? How do you feel? I said, well, I feel not so good, I feel problem after long program. Team even, I miss two jumps. Triple Salchow I missed, and triple loop. Because I feel already the...(gestures to back) my muscles, sore. And I explained to my federation, better maybe if somebody else gonna skate. I asked them.


Of course, everything CNN does is politically motivated, and the reporter was trying hard to ask leading questions, but thinking back, I am glad that he had this interview. The main substantial point was that after the team event, he told FFKKR officials about his condition (which was not nearly as bad at that time in comparison with a few days later). He hid nothing from them.

10. Immediately after the CNN interview, the following statement appeared on the FFKKR official website:
http://fsrussia.ru/news/1106_evgenij-pl ... -ne-davil/
In the statement, Evgeni said that he was not pressured into competing, and that limitations in his English was a factor. However, there was no denial in the statement about the main factual point of the interview—that he talked to the FFKKR about his physical condition after the team event. Perhaps this statement, which appeared so quickly, was meant to be “crisis PR”, but if so, it was “crisis PR” for the FFKKR, not Plushenko.

------------------------------------

Again, my apologies, I know that all this was in the past and I'm not trying to dwell on these things; this is more for completeness than for anything else. I was meaning to post this soon after Sochi, but it took me way to long to put them together (and maybe better late than never?)...

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Re: Общая дискуссия || General discussion about Evgeni

Postby lala630312 » 11 Jun 2014, 08:32

Thank you Whitebamboo!

We know Plushy is great! He didn't lie in that situation! :plush10:
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Re: Общая дискуссия || General discussion about Evgeni

Postby Karina » 11 Jun 2014, 10:19

Thank you, WhiteBamboo, for these posts. Very informative, well-argued, and excellently researched. Thank you, for shining out a little bit of the truth.

There's no way I can match your research. My own, simpler take on the situation, through the lens of basic logic:

1) The selection for Sochi is basically "Who's better for the Team event, under Olympic pressure?" (Answer is, obviously, Plushenko. Especially after Europeans). Russian Fed. knows any candidate they send will have little chance of winning gold at individuals. Tarasova, on the other hand, is invested in getting Kovtun to the Olympics, hence all the politics about withdrawing after the Team event.

2) Since the Fed. chose to send him, Plushenko was obviously going to go, no matter if he skates one program or four. He's basically been about Sochi, Sochi, Sochi non-stop in every interview for the past four years. I'm sure he thought he could skate the four programs if he needed to. (WhiteBamboo, thank you for finding the interview where he talks about how they used to do 2 LPs in GPF. That was the first thing that came to mind when people said he must've known he couldn't skate four programs).

3) He did his job in the Team event. He basically couldn't withdraw at that point, because everyone would say it's fake (thanks to Tarasova/Russian Fed's "rule clarifications" painting him into a corner). He's damned if he withdraws in time and damned if he doesn't. The only way he gets out of it looking clean is if he skates individuals.

4) That's why it would be colossally stupid to say he "chickened out" of individuals. Because skating there and landing off the podium would still look tons better than WD. And considering his obsession with both Sochi and skating, why would he not want to skate? In this crazy inconsistent men's field (see: 2013 Worlds, '11-'12 GPF), he actually beat Patrick Chan in the Team event. Why the heck would he skip off home now? (His marks in the Team would've made for a comfortable bronze, btw). Perhaps this would be an offensive statement, but: If he were the coward people labelled him as, he would never have made it out of Volgograd.

5) Of course, then there's the x-rays, the operation, the screws. Guess that's all an elaborate ruse from the doctors? :kli_ny:

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Re: Общая дискуссия || General discussion about Evgeni

Postby cekoni » 12 Jun 2014, 05:53

Thanks girls for your comments :plush39:
... especially to Whitebamboo - you are our "chronicler" :plush45: - thank you very much for your efforts :ro_za:

I personally lost the will to prove anything to anyone :kli_ny: - basic thing (my proof) is that Plushy lost more than anyone else, as he could not compete for individual medal :plush34:

--------------

Just to to add more details (maybe they were mentioned before, but i forgot) :plush38:

... about rules:
- only one from FFKR who knew rules (said them in public) was Lakernik, and he repeated them all the time (from october 2013)
- Piseev "praised" Plushy after RN (for his statement on participation only in the team event) - so he also dont knew rules then
- last "clarification" of rules was asked by russian bloggers/journalists during Euros (january 2014), and they were obtained from Cinquanta at his press-conference

... about Kovtun's "illness":
- one whole week talk to media only his choreographer Chernishov ("Kovtun was sick, but not so much"). He never atacked Plushy.
- his coach Vodorezova-Buyanova was silent all the time - she start to talk about that, only when Sotnikova won gold. She atacked Plushy and FFKR.

---------------

Summary:
CSKA, TAT, and the whole team of their media tried until end to make some changes from ISU in rules, just because of Kovtun's participation. By me, they are simply: rude, selfish and greedy - they want it all, and want it now!

They wanted that Sotnikova skate and in a team competition, to become a two-time Olympic winner (with that they will deny the right to some russian couple on the medal, but dont care).
Why they continue to attacks on Plushy? All the time they are convinced that Plushy "stole" Team medal from Kovtun, no matter how he skated there (due to successful performances of other Russian skaters) - they are completely indifferent to others, or how he would performed at individual - only is important that one more medal will be in their possession.

Permanent methods:
- Persistent destruction of other skating school in Russia (especially in St.Petersbirg), with the intention to stay only one - CSKA Moscow
- Completely pointless advertising campaign of Kovtun (given on his so far achievements) .... last was hilarious campaign on his military service of one week :ps_ih: that's same for all athletes (Plushy also served 2003) - as well as others russian skaters in the same time (Katsalapov, Soloviev, for example), were in army when and Kovtun. About all of them was only 1 text - about Kovtun? 100 texts, in which in the panic writes about how Plushenko's "rival" was sent in the army, far away from the skating, why, where...? :kli_ny: Even Piseev talked about and try to calm "agitated public". Also about that talked Averbukh "He will become a man in the army", and his coach, Buyanova: "What's the problem?" As part of the campaign: 10 interviews with Kovtun, 5 TV news (how he cuted his hair, he took the gun, his shooting, how other the soldiers see him...), and few big photo-albums from this 7 days :ps_ih:

.... 1 photo-album about other skaters...
Торжественное увольнение с военной службы участников спортивных рот:
http://www.team-russia2014.ru/article/17060.html

And about Kovtun - just small part.... :kli_ny:

... News and interviews:
Главного соперника Евгения Плющенко призвали в армию:
http://udmtv.ru/news/glavnogo_sopernika ... _v_armiyu/
Фигуриста Максима Ковтуна призвали в армию:
http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skat ... 73022.html
Ковтун примет присягу 25 мая в Москве:
http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skat ... 27487.html
Ковтун принял военную присягу:
http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skat ... 18216.html
Максим Ковтун: с особым нетерпением жду стрельбы:
http://www.team-russia2014.ru/article/17082.html
Максим Ковтун: в первую же ночь службы успел побывать в наряде:
http://www.team-russia2014.ru/article/17167.html
Максим Ковтун: «Мы не ВДВ или спецназ, но сильнее и выносливее, чем обычные пацаны»:
http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skat ... 22650.html

Валентин Писеев: «Ковтун призван на непродолжительный срок, примерно неделю»:
http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skat ... 80639.html
Елена Буянова: «Что такого в том факте, что Ковтун будет служить в армии?»:
http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skat ... 78424.html
Елена Буянова: «Ковтун очень хотел пойти в армию и за несколько дней службы изменился в лучшую сторону»:
http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skat ... 83607.html
Илья Авербух: «Для больших спортсменов в армии есть льготные условия»:
http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skat ... 87629.html
Алексей Ягудин: «Хорошо, что Ковтун побрился налысо сейчас, а не в разгар сезона»:
http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skat ... 75788.html

TV news:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsFCoT3sBew
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50yhjARKRfo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_JlvXRaAqA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtEqGV7SCLI

Photos:
http://www.team-russia2014.ru/article/17089.html
http://www.team-russia2014.ru/article/17141.html
http://www.team-russia2014.ru/article/17176.html
...
Image

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Re: Общая дискуссия || General discussion about Evgeni

Postby lala630312 » 12 Jun 2014, 08:35

This is interesting Cekoni. Thank you! Works the PR mashine...
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Re: Общая дискуссия || General discussion about Evgeni

Postby Karina » 12 Jun 2014, 09:07

All the time they are convinced that Plushy "stole" Team medal from Kovtun, no matter how he skated there (due to successful performances of other Russian skaters) - they are completely indifferent to others, or how he would performed at individual - only is important that one more medal will be in their possession.

Everyone is so smart after the fact. But when they were selecting the teams, they didn't know how their own athletes would perform, or how well other countries' athletes would perform. It's logical to select Plushy, who has a history of delivering under Olympic pressure. Can you imagine if their men's candidate had bombed the SP (first event) like Jeremy Abbott from the US did? And the rest of the team needed to dig themselves out of a hole? (Illinyk/Kastalopov, for instance, are a wonderful but inconsistent team. Who knows how they would've performed if the pressure hadn't been off them?) It's not like Plushy bombed both his programs and got the medal anyway. Media was praising him to the heavens until his WD.

- Persistent destruction of other skating school in Russia (especially in St.Petersbirg), with the intention to stay only one - CSKA Moscow

Likely why Plushy wants to stay in competition... And why Mishin won't retire. I heard Tamara Moskvina was going to retire, but it seems like she's still going to take care of Kavaguti/Smirnov. The whole situation is very, very sad. I pray Liza and Petrov have some good things in store.

- Completely pointless advertising campaign of Kovtun (given on his so far achievements) .... last was hilarious campaign on his military service of one week :ps_ih: that's same for all athletes (Plushy also served 2003) - as well as others russian skaters in the same time (Katsalapov, Soloviev, for example), were in army when and Kovtun. About all of them was only 1 text - about Kovtun? 100 texts, in which in the panic writes about how Plushenko's "rival" was sent in the army, far away from the skating, why, where...? :kli_ny: Even Piseev talked about and try to calm "agitated public". Also about that talked Averbukh "He will become a man in the army", and his coach, Buyanova: "What's the problem?" As part of the campaign: 10 interviews with Kovtun, 5 TV news (how he cuted his hair, he took the gun, his shooting, how other the soldiers see him...), and few big photo-albums from this 7 days :ps_ih:

Oh yeah, this was really weird. Isn't his so-called military service just some very basic training that doesn't cut into his skating at all? It's not like they're sending him to the front lines or something. What's the big deal, the big advertisement for?

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Re: Общая дискуссия || General discussion about Evgeni

Postby lovplush » 12 Jun 2014, 13:35

I am really amazed after so long it is still the hot s*** for Russian media. It is just all nonsense.

If Kovtun is that good, praise him when he gets gold medal from ANY A-level international competition. If he cannot, even if he is the national champion, there is nothing to be proud of. Beating Plushenko who was just recovered from serious spine surgery probably would be his only achievement to boast if he counts on such campaign to raise his status in Russian figure skating world.
Image
Plushenko Chinese Fans Club: http://www.plushycnfanclub.org/

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Re: Общая дискуссия || General discussion about Evgeni

Postby cekoni » 13 Jun 2014, 03:51

Karina wrote:Everyone is so smart after the fact. But when they were selecting the teams, they didn't know how their own athletes would perform, or how well other countries' athletes would perform. It's logical to select Plushy, who has a history of delivering under Olympic pressure. Can you imagine if their men's candidate had bombed the SP ...

But TAT & Co. was not asked on that who will go to the Olympics. TAT was very mad because she could not decide about it, and because she could not attend to Plushy's "closed test skating" (all "interested" parties then were excluded from the decision-making) - although she was not "officially" part of Kovtun's team, everyone knew what the truth is.

And to repeat again - until Sotnikova's victory, they were silent.


Karina wrote:Oh yeah, this was really weird. Isn't his so-called military service just some very basic training that doesn't cut into his skating at all? It's not like they're sending him to the front lines or something. What's the big deal, the big advertisement for?

For their purposes.... This "military service" is nothing in particular, as a Boy Scout camp - a trip to the countryside.



lovplush wrote:....
If Kovtun is that good, praise him when he gets gold medal from ANY A-level international competition. If he cannot, even if he is the national champion, there is nothing to be proud of. Beating Plushenko who was just recovered from serious spine surgery probably would be his only achievement to boast if he counts on such campaign to raise his status in Russian figure skating world.

They trying to make of him Yagudin 2.0 - regardless all Plushy's victories over Yagudin, they emphasize only the last one.
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Re: Общая дискуссия || General discussion about Evgeni

Postby whitebamboo » 13 Jun 2014, 06:02

Karina wrote:...
Everyone is so smart after the fact. But when they were selecting the teams, they didn't know how their own athletes would perform, or how well other countries' athletes would perform. It's logical to select Plushy, who has a history of delivering under Olympic pressure. Can you imagine if their men's candidate had bombed the SP (first event) like Jeremy Abbott from the US did? And the rest of the team needed to dig themselves out of a hole? (Illinyk/Kastalopov, for instance, are a wonderful but inconsistent team. Who knows how they would've performed if the pressure hadn't been off them?) It's not like Plushy bombed both his programs and got the medal anyway. Media was praising him to the heavens until his WD.


Yes, indeed, these people would let out all their "assessments" after the fact, because after all, one can always say anything after the fact--it's impossible to go back in time to absolutely prove them wrong, after all. But one thing I noticed--all of Evgeni's actual Team Competition teammates were supportive of him, and appreciative of what he did for the team, in interviews after his withdrawal. It's a really good point about the fact that the men's SP was the very first event. Maybe there hasn't really been so many high-pressured team competitions in figure skating before, but in other sports (e. g. gymnastics) with team competitions in similar formats, the "domino effect" has been apparent plenty of times. (And remember at the time, Russia didn't have a gold in the home Olympic Games yet...)

Everyone one the Russian team performed well and with consistency, and Russia won with a big advantage, so people start to say they would have won with another man, too. But again--after the fact. Before the competition, Russia's advantage was by no means so clear. Most people were predicting a tight competition, and some were predicting that Canada would win. But of course, now all that was forgotten...

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Re: Общая дискуссия || General discussion about Evgeni

Postby whitebamboo » 13 Jun 2014, 06:28

cekoni wrote:...
Just to to add more details (maybe they were mentioned before, but i forgot) :plush38:

... about rules:
- only one from FFKR who knew rules (said them in public) was Lakernik, and he repeated them all the time (from october 2013)
- Piseev "praised" Plushy after RN (for his statement on participation only in the team event) - so he also dont knew rules then
- last "clarification" of rules was asked by russian bloggers/journalists during Euros (january 2014), and they were obtained from Cinquanta at his press-conference

... about Kovtun's "illness":
- one whole week talk to media only his choreographer Chernishov ("Kovtun was sick, but not so much"). He never atacked Plushy.
- his coach Vodorezova-Buyanova was silent all the time - she start to talk about that, only when Sotnikova won gold. She atacked Plushy and FFKR.

---------------

Summary:
CSKA, TAT, and the whole team of their media tried until end to make some changes from ISU in rules, just because of Kovtun's participation. By me, they are simply: rude, selfish and greedy - they want it all, and want it now!

They wanted that Sotnikova skate and in a team competition, to become a two-time Olympic winner (with that they will deny the right to some russian couple on the medal, but dont care).
Why they continue to attacks on Plushy? All the time they are convinced that Plushy "stole" Team medal from Kovtun, no matter how he skated there (due to successful performances of other Russian skaters) - they are completely indifferent to others, or how he would performed at individual - only is important that one more medal will be in their possession.
...


Thank you very much for your summary and the additional information, dear Cekoni! :plush39:

I do have to say, though, that I cannot bring myself to believe that in FFKKR, the only one who actually knew the rules beforehand was Lakernik...Of course, it is impossible to prove things one way or the other. But they were the ones who talked behind the scenes to the ISU in October and November, in order to obtain this "rule clarification"--I cannot believe that they did not know what terms the ISU offered them. If Lakernik knew, then I really think that Piseev did, too.

From what Mishin said at the time of the test skate (something like "Lakernik will be present, to ensure an objective assessment"), and also from Yana's interview, I got somewhat of a sense that Plushy's team felt that Lakernik was someone who would be more honest and fair towards them in this situation. Of course, I may very well be wrong, but it would fit with the fact that apparently Lakernik was the only one who talked honestly in public about the "rule clarification"--the fact that it required withdrawal due to injury--in November. But as Yana said in her interview later, at that point Evgeni didn't follow the news, he was fully focused on his own training.

This is only a wild guess, but I think Piseev's first positive response to Evgeni's statement after the RN was simply because he thought that they'd gotten what they wanted from him. A possible theory is that maybe the situation kind of got out of their control after that point--because Evgeni's statement got reported widely, and people everywhere were taking notice and start to talk about what a scandal it would be. (E. g. the many questions about this "rule clarification" to Cinquanta at the Euros.) Yet even after Piseev admitted that Plushy would have to withdraw due to injury in order to switch skaters, it was clear from his words in the interviews after that he hasn't fully given up on the idea--as long as they could claim it was all "Plushenko's idea", somehow, and push the accusations of "cheating" onto him...

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